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Democrats Face Identity Crisis

CajunCrimson said:
Where do you personally fall in this equation? I'm apparently in the 51% who say there are some circumstances where I understand it. That definitely doesn't make me in favor of abortion as a means of birth control. It means, that under certain circumstances, there may not be a better option.
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A SCOTUS case in the 90's moved the regulatory cutoff from the beginning of the third trimester to the point of viability outside the womb, which offers a sliding scale that accounts for broad technological advances and fetal requirements on a case-by-case basis. That standard seems to be the most reasonable compromise position, IMO, but there is no objective answer to your question.

I don't favor abortion as a means of birth control either. I've said it here before: if I had my way, condoms would rain from the sky, abstinence-only education would be banned, and all women would be able to get implantable, intrauterine, or oral contraceptives completely free of charge.

I'm just trying to help get a better understanding. Because if 51% are accepting of some form of abortion - do we really think that those who:

1. Approve of Abortion only in the case of rape, incest or life of the mother

and

2. Approve only of first and second trimester abortions

should be placed in the same segment? There's no way to make a determination one way or another -- about what most American's believe -- if you put those two together.

Because all that tells me is that 29% are extreme in one direction and 19% are extreme in the other.
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Well you'll never be able to get that kind of granular data from this Gallup survey. But let me flip it around. If someone believes that abortion is murder, why would the circumstances of conception matter? Sure, we would agree that someone experiencing rape is a tragic thing, but how does that justify murder? We would agree that incest is socially discouraged for genetic reasons, but many children born of incest live normal lives. Why is it okay to kill these particular fetuses but not others? Frankly, if one believes that abortion is murder, the argument that murder is sometimes okay makes no sense. That assumption makes it a binary issue, and I don't see room for a middle ground.
 
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jthomas666 said:
He did lose the popular vote, remember. So even if your baseless assumption is true, it's still possible that most Americans support the right to choice and gay rights.
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Yeah because of NY and California. Many of those votes being dead people and illegal immigrants.
 
I think it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that one is for individual rights and the government staying out of the people's business, then in the next breath saying that homosexuals shouldn't be afforded the same rights as anyone else under the color of the law.

Call me crazy, but that is what a Constitutional Conservative would surely say if they weren't courting the religious vote. (I fall in the CC category and that's what I say regardless of my religious views. My personal bias, I suppose.)
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by pcfixup
The Democrats are too tied to social issues. They are doomed as long as white Americans are in the majority. and as long as a majority of americans are against Abortion and gay rights.



CharminTide said:
The majority of Americans do support abortion and gay rights.
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You would be surprised at the number of Conservatives that support pro choice and could care less about someones sexual orientation as long as its happening behind closed doors.
 
bama2112 said:

You would be surprised at the number of Conservatives that support pro choice and could care less about someones sexual orientation as long as its happening behind closed doors.
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I don't believe it is that many. Most voted for Obama in 2008 for pocketbook reasons, Stayed home rather than vote for a mormon in 2012, and turned out for trump.
 
Wilson Monroe said:
I think it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that one is for individual rights and the government staying out of the people's business, then in the next breath saying that homosexuals shouldn't be afforded the same rights as anyone else under the color of the law.

Call me crazy, but that is what a Constitutional Conservative would surely say if they weren't courting the religious vote. (I fall in the CC category and that's what I say regardless of my religious views. My personal bias, I suppose.)
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I think most who would argue for individual rights and the government staying out of people's business would want the government out of marriage altogether at this point, gay or straight. That would help ease a lot of this tension and provide solutions to both parties. Homosexuals do what you like, straight folk, do what you like. Bake a cake, don't bake a cake, host a wedding, don't host a wedding - it's up to you.
 
92tide said:
that is complete nonsense
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Oh yeah sure it is. NY and California go leaps and bounds having sanctuary cities to protect illegal immigrants, their colleges are flooded with illegals who get scholarships over American citizens. Their courtrooms let criminal aliens out the back door to avoid ICE or just find them not guilty where is to if they were citizens they would thrown in prison in a heartbeat for the crime they committed. Yet you think it's complete nonsense not a single one voted in 2016. Wow just wow...
 
bama2112 said:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by pcfixup
The Democrats are too tied to social issues. They are doomed as long as white Americans are in the majority. and as long as a majority of americans are against Abortion and gay rights.





You would be surprised at the number of Conservatives that support pro choice and could care less about someones sexual orientation as long as its happening behind closed doors.
Click to expand...

I'm one of them.
 
BamaJama17 said:
Oh yeah sure it is. NY and California go leaps and bounds having sanctuary cities to protect illegal immigrants, their colleges are flooded with illegals who get scholarships over American citizens. Their courtrooms let criminal aliens out the back door to avoid ICE or just find them not guilty where is to if they were citizens they would thrown in prison in a heartbeat for the crime they committed. Yet you think it's complete nonsense not a single one voted in 2016. Wow just wow...
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i heard the keep all of the records of the illegal voting in the basement at comet ping pong. the code to see the records is to order a white pie with anchovies.
 
BamaJama17 said:
Oh yeah sure it is. NY and California go leaps and bounds having sanctuary cities to protect illegal immigrants, their colleges are flooded with illegals who get scholarships over American citizens. Their courtrooms let criminal aliens out the back door to avoid ICE or just find them not guilty where is to if they were citizens they would thrown in prison in a heartbeat for the crime they committed. Yet you think it's complete nonsense not a single one voted in 2016. Wow just wow...
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You're changing the charge here.

There's no doubt that there are rare instances of:
voter suppression (the old Democratic excuse when they lose)
voter fraud (the Republican standby when they lose)
so-called illegal votes (Trump's excuse when.....wait for it....he WON)

Sure, they occur. But the phrase "illegal votes" almost always refers to felons who didn't understand they couldn't vote/weren't scrubbed from the voters rolls. ALL of these occur, yes - but not on the widespread and massive scale asserted by the Head Cheeto.

This is the only election I've ever seen where the loser refuses to accept losing (with a pile of excuses - well, I've seen that) AND at the same time the winner refuses to accept winning.


Some of us remember Trump "winning" when he was in the USFL - he, in fact, carries most of the blame for the fact the USFL went under. His record is three years, maybe he can fail on a grander scale now, and I say this as one not given to hyperbolic comments about "the election of X is the end of the world."
 
CajunCrimson said:
Where do you personally fall in this equation? I'm apparently in the 51% who say there are some circumstances where I understand it. That definitely doesn't make me in favor of abortion as a means of birth control. It means, that under certain circumstances, there may not be a better option.

I'm just trying to help get a better understanding. Because if 51% are accepting of some form of abortion - do we really think that those who:

1. Approve of Abortion only in the case of rape, incest or life of the mother
and
2. Approve only of first and second trimester abortions

should be placed in the same segment? There's no way to make a determination one way or another -- about what most American's believe -- if you put those two together.

Because all that tells me is that 29% are extreme in one direction and 19% are extreme in the other.
Click to expand...

What about those who believe their approval is their own to grant or withhold, rather than to codify it into law and thus exert control over others?
 
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