QB Competition 2018

[KrAzY3]

The bottom line is that he hasn't really improved when it comes down to performances against the best teams

There's a major omissions there, I'm not saying you did it deliberately but a lot of posters here were well aware of it (including B1G) because we discussed it several times...

Last year Kiffin gave Hurts a steady diet of underneath stuff. It wasn't all he threw, I defended him in pointing it out, but the steady complaint about Hurts was that his numbers last year were inflated by the short throws which padded his stats. There was no denying it helped to, since it accounted for something like 900 yards in the passing game. Daboll basically ripped that up and threw it away (I question the wisdom of doing that). You also conveniently only posted completions and yards, which is part of the story. Either cherry picking or just missing the big picture.

Here's his passer rating for those games (looks a bit different doesn't it? I stuck with your list):
2017:
FSU: 118.7
LSU: 123.6
Miss. State: 186.8
Auburn: 112.3
Statistically inaccurate average: 135.35


2016:
LSU: 89.4
Florida: 129.5
Washington: 84.2
Clemson: 88.1
Statistically inaccurate average: 97.8

If you can't see that he's improved, yes even against good defenses, it's because you simply refuse to see that. Daboll is asking him to do more though, which I would argue is probably too much. Anyway, if we're going to judge Hurts we need to do it fairly.

Edit: (I'm not going to figure out the actual passer rating formulas and average it, but I posted an approximation of his average for comparison sake). I'd also add that I think the playcalling situation hurts his performance against Clemson and Washington, but the improvement as a passer still shows up against better passing defenses (which LSU and Miss. State both are). One last addition. Last year people were saying he plateaued, this year people are saying he plateaued. I'm guessing this true sophomore has yet to actually plateau.

 

[B1GTide]

Hurts will be our QB next year. Two games lost in 2 years and neither was his fault. Get with the program Tide Fans!

No one has blames him for either, but you need someone on offense to get it done for you when the defense struggles, or when the opponent's defense rises up.

If Jalen cannot be that guy, then you need to stop asking him to be that guy. I'm not saying bench the guy, but how about letting one of your other great players take over a game. How many games did Ingram win for you? How about Henry? You have got a few guys like that on this team. Give them a shot.

 

[B1GTide]

There's a major omissions there, I'm not saying you did it deliberately but a lot of posters here were well aware of it (including B1G) because we discussed it several times...

Last year Kiffin gave Hurts a steady diet of underneath stuff. It wasn't all he threw, I defended him in pointing it out, but the steady complaint about Hurts was that his numbers last year were inflated by the short throws which padded his stats. There was no denying it helped to, since it accounted for something like 900 yards in the passing game. Daboll basically ripped that up and threw it away (I question the wisdom of doing that). You also, conveniently only posted completions and yards, which is part of the story. Either cherry picking or just missing the big picture.

Here's his passer rating for those games (looks a bit different doesn't it?):
2017:
FSU: 118.7
LSU: 123.6
Miss. State: 186.8
Auburn: 112.3

2016:
LSU: 89.4
Florida: 129.5
Washington: 84.2
Clemson: 88.1

If you can't see that he's improved, yes even against good defenses, it's because you simply refuse to see that. Daboll is asking him to do more though, which I would argue is probably too much. Anyway, if we're going to judge Hurts we need to do it fairly.

IMO you need to pull the MSU stats out - their secondary is HORRID. Their front 7 got pressure on Hurts, but when he scrambled he had his choice of open receivers down the field.

 

[CoolBreeze]

No one has blames him for either, but you need someone on offense to get it done for you when the defense struggles, or when the opponent's defense rises up.

If Jalen cannot be that guy, then you need to stop asking him to be that guy. I'm not saying bench the guy, but how about letting one of your other great players take over a game. How many games did Ingram win for you? How about Henry? You have got a few guys like that on this team. Give them a shot.

He should never have to be in a position to be that guy. Look, the offense is littered with 4 and 5 star talent. We need the coach who knows how to use a guy like Hurts similarly the way Kiffin did with the last running QB we had. Look, we can line it up and run down most everyone's throat if we would take on that identity as an offense. Do we even have an identity under this Offensive Coordinator? Run the dang ball and quit blaming the QB for poor game planning is all I am saying.

 

[KrAzY3]

IMO you need to pull the MSU stats out - their secondary is HORRID. Their front 7 got pressure on Hurts, but when he scrambled he had his choice of open receivers down the field.

No I don't. They are 13th in passing defense. Besides, I used his list. By the way did you switch sides again? Around this time last year you were saying Hurts couldn't pass, then around A-Day this year you came around and now... I'm kind of messing with you but you get my point.

Do we even have an identity under this Offensive Coordinator? Run the dang ball and quit blaming the QB for poor game planning is all I am saying.

Shh it's all Hurts' fault. Nevermind that Daboll has literally never run a good offense in his life (I am emphasizing Daboll's crappy resume to make a point, not because I think he's a lost cause, but clearly that guy needs some help).

 

[TIDE-HSV]

He should never have to be in a position to be that guy. Look, the offense is littered with 4 and 5 star talent. We need the coach who knows how to use a guy like Hurts similarly the way Kiffin did with the last running QB we had. Look, we can line it up and run down most everyone's throat if we would take on that identity as an offense. Do we even have an identity under this Offensive Coordinator? Run the dang ball and quit blaming the QB for poor game planning is all I am saying.

The only problem with that is that the QB has to be willing to give up the ball. That has been a problem. It was a huge problem in the AU game. When he gets under pressure, he gets even less willing to give it up. Essentially, that's what beat us, if you filter out the "might have been" factors. He has to pass it (quicker) or hand it off. It wasn't in the game plan for him to have a gross distortion like equaling the number of carries by all three RBs...

 

[B1GTide]

He should never have to be in a position to be that guy. Look, the offense is littered with 4 and 5 star talent. We need the coach who knows how to use a guy like Hurts similarly the way Kiffin did with the last running QB we had. Look, we can line it up and run down most everyone's throat if we would take on that identity as an offense. Do we even have an identity under this Offensive Coordinator? Run the dang ball and quit blaming the QB for poor game planning is all I am saying.

You can't just have a running game, or just have a passing game. You have to have both. Every Saban championship has needed both against your toughest opponents. Right now you have a running game (with your RBs), a running game (with Hurts), a running game (when Hurts pulls the ball down and runs with it on called pass plays), and what remains of your passing game (after you remove those plays when Jalen took off instead of passing the ball).

So, you don't think that Jalen should have to be in that position, but he puts himself in that position. If he would just do his job, Alabama would be unbeatable.

 

[B1GTide]

No I don't. They are 13th in passing defense. Besides, I used his list. By the way did you switch sides again? Around this time last year you were saying Hurts couldn't pass, then around A-Day this year you came around and now... I'm kind of messing with you but you get my point.

I have switched to "he won't pass".

Most of MSU's pass defense stats are a result of their front 7.

 

[KrAzY3]

The only problem with that is that the QB has to be willing to give up the ball. That has been a problem. It was a huge problem in the AU game. When he gets under pressure, he gets even less willing to give it up. Essentially, that's what beat us, if you filter out the "might have been" factors. He has to pass it (quicker) or hand it off. It wasn't in the game plan for him to have a gross distortion like equaling the number of carries by all three RBs...

I'm not sure if you recall, this, but in previous Daboll conversations I said I feared that the playcalling would fail Alabama and that Hurts would be blamed. Granted, part of my argument is that Hurts is given too much control of the offense. He's being asked to do too much. But the remedy to some of this is fairly simple. You get the ball out of Hurts hands faster, and unless he just consistently refuses to run the plays that are called (which would be an issue) it'll happen. I mean if you draw up a play for Hurts that has him throwing a pass to someone 5 yards away from him, he's not going to have a lot of time to make another read. If you draw up a vanilla handoff, he should hand the ball off more often than not. And if he's not, the coordinator has the job of insuring that happens. Hurts is not the playcaller.

That's what I've been saying all along really. I said I wanted Hurts running less. I said I wanted to see some shorter routes. It seems to me they are still leaving too much in the hands of Hurts. So either way, the solutions starts with the plays they call and if Hurts is actually just insubordinate, then that's a much bigger issue. But the under pressure thing, that's often a result of slow routes. If the ball is already gone it's not an issue.

I have switched to "he won't pass".

He darn sure threw a lot of those short Kiffin passes now didn't he? No way I'm going to let people beat him over the head with it last year then pretend it didn't happen now.

 

[B1GTide]

I'm not sure if you recall, this, but in previous Daboll conversations I said I feared that the playcalling would fail Alabama and that Hurts would be blamed. Granted, part of my argument is that Hurts is given too much control of the offense. He's being asked to do too much. But the remedy to some of this is fairly simple. You get the ball out of Hurts hands faster, and unless he just consistently refuses to run the plays that are called (which would be an issue) it'll happen. I mean if you draw up a play for Hurts that has him throwing a pass to someone 5 yards away from him, he's not going to have a lot of time to make another read. If you draw up a vanilla handoff, he should hand the ball off more often than not. And if he's not, the coordinator has the job of insuring that happens. Hurts is not the playcaller.

That's what I've been saying all along really. I said I wanted Hurts running less. I said I wanted to see some shorter routes. It seems to me they are still leaving too much in the hands of Hurts. So either way, the solutions starts with the plays they call and if Hurts is actually just insubordinate, then that's a much bigger issue. But the under pressure thing, that's often a result of slow routes. If the ball is already gone it's not an issue.


He darn sure threw a lot of those short Kiffin passes now didn't he? No way I'm going to let people beat him over the head with it last year then pretend it didn't happen now.

On those slow routes, stand in the pocket and take a hit. I mean, at least every once in a while. Heck, I'd settle for once.

 

[BamaMoon]

The only problem with that is that the QB has to be willing to give up the ball. That has been a problem. It was a huge problem in the AU game. When he gets under pressure, he gets even less willing to give it up. Essentially, that's what beat us, if you filter out the "might have been" factors. He has to pass it (quicker) or hand it off. It wasn't in the game plan for him to have a gross distortion like equaling the number of carries by all three RBs...

Agree and it's that "might have been" stuff that doesn't show up in his passing efficiency either. Seems he's only willing to throw the "safe" throw and even then his stats aren't that great.

 

[B1GTide]

He darn sure threw a lot of those short Kiffin passes now didn't he? No way I'm going to let people beat him over the head with it last year then pretend it didn't happen now.

I would love to see Alabama incorporate some jet sweeps back into your offense. It just can't be your entire passing game.

 

[KrAzY3]

On those slow routes, stand in the pocket and take a hit. I mean, at least every once in a while. Heck, I'd settle for once.

But can we now all agree there doesn't need to be so many slow routes? I mean just read the issues almost everyone is citing. Almost all of them come down to Jalen having the ball too long.

Now, look back to how Kiffin used Blake Sims. Kiffin rarely gave Sims the chance to do that. Think about it, how many of his passes were really simple reads? Even the deep passes tended to be really simple reads. More often than not though, he just got the ball out of Sims hands fast. This takes the decision making out of the QBs hands and puts it into the playcallers hands. This steady diet of slow stuff, which is just what Daboll ran in the NFL to not much success, is giving time for Hurts weaknesses to come into play. This shouldn't be the way this offense works under Hurts though! It just shouldn't. Not when Hurts could throw for 3,000 yards by getting the ball out of his hand quicker on most plays.

I'm in agreement that Hurts still needs to improve, but for the love of God call plays that make sense for the skills he has now!

 

[BamaMark.]

I'm not sure if you recall, this, but in previous Daboll conversations I said I feared that the playcalling would fail Alabama and that Hurts would be blamed. Granted, part of my argument is that Hurts is given too much control of the offense. He's being asked to do too much. But the remedy to some of this is fairly simple. You get the ball out of Hurts hands faster, and unless he just consistently refuses to run the plays that are called (which would be an issue) it'll happen. I mean if you draw up a play for Hurts that has him throwing a pass to someone 5 yards away from him, he's not going to have a lot of time to make another read. If you draw up a vanilla handoff, he should hand the ball off more often than not. And if he's not, the coordinator has the job of insuring that happens. Hurts is not the playcaller.

That's what I've been saying all along really. I said I wanted Hurts running less. I said I wanted to see some shorter routes. It seems to me they are still leaving too much in the hands of Hurts. So either way, the solutions starts with the plays they call and if Hurts is actually just insubordinate, then that's a much bigger issue. But the under pressure thing, that's often a result of slow routes. If the ball is already gone it's not an issue.


He darn sure threw a lot of those short Kiffin passes now didn't he? No way I'm going to let people beat him over the head with it last year then pretend it didn't happen now.

Are you referring to the jet sweep tosses? cause that was probably half his completions last year.

 

[B1GTide]

But can we now all agree there doesn't need to be so many slow routes? I mean just read the issues almost everyone is citing. Almost all of them come down to Jalen having the ball too long.

Until he tries to stand in he pocket for those routes, no, I do not accept that the problem is the routes.

 

[KrAzY3]

Are you referring to the jet sweep tosses? cause that was probably half his completions last year.

Around 900 of his yards last year came via behind the LOS passes. Which to reiterate my earlier point emphasizes that Hurts has indeed improved as a passer, since Daboll seems to primarily believe in slow developing longer routes (to his credit I do think Daboll has helped Hurts develop). But it also means there are cheap yards being left off the table! If they are available, take them! It would make sustaining drives far easier, since a slow developing deeper pass is always going to have a lower percentage chance of success.

But no I'm not specifically telling Daboll what short stuff to run. I'm just saying, long stuff aint' working, what do you do? Oh yeah, you draw up some short stuff. It's not rocket science. I'm a Saints fan, they have a prototypical pro style quarterback, but they find all kinds of ways to get the ball to playmakers on short passes. Just get the ball out of Hurts hands faster. If you draw the play up right, you remove part of the decision making from the equation, or in the least you leave it in hand of the professional play caller and not in the true sophomore's hands.

My main argument though is that this isn't a Daboll or Hurts problem exclusively. This is an offensive problem. Daboll doesn't have Tom Brady, so Hurts isn't going to look like Tom Brady running Tom Brady style plays. Daboll needs to adjust to the limitation of Hurts, and Hurts needs to execute better under those circumstances. But almost all the complaints, almost all the issues voiced come down to how Hurts handles slow developing pass plays (which is Daboll's preferred pass play). Is there not a way around that?

My big complain, is that when people see Hurts struggling with the slow developing routes, the immediate solution that comes to most people's mind is just change quarterbacks. Not run less slow developing routes, but just change quarterbacks. Really? Which is a less dramatic fix? Hurts overall has done quite well, but he struggles with slow routes so the only solution is to sit the guy. Ok...

Until he tries to stand in he pocket for those routes, no, I do not accept that the problem is the routes.

And I'm saying if Daboll isn't willing to adjust his gameplan to better accommodate Hurts's strengths and weaknesses that is a failure of the offensive coordinator. His job is to work with the tools he has. He can see the same things you're seeing, but guess what? He gets to choose the plays! You don't choose plays that you know won't be executed!

It's like if you have a point guard that can't shoot 3s, you can't tell him to go out there and shoot 3s. You don't say look I'm drawing up good plays, you're just missing! The dude can't shoot 3s, so you call another play! Would you have been ok with AJ being used as a dual threat quarterback? I mean if they drew up really good running plays for him, but he just kept you know, not being a good runner? I mean we're talking about slow developing deep routes here, Hurts has shown an affinity for shorter stuff right? So may be less stuff he's not as good at.

 

[BamaMoon]

Didn't someone debunk the "theory" that all of our current passing tree routes are "long, slow developing routes?"

 

[KrAzY3]

Didn't someone debunk the "theory" that all of our current passing tree routes are "long, slow developing routes?"

Obviously Daboll hasn't just run slow developing stuff, but going back to his days in the NFL he's always liked deep passes.

Just compare his offense to Kiffin with Sims and Hurts. It's obvious he has the ball in the quarterbacks hands longer. That part is undeniable and has to go back to certain aspects of the passing game. Also, I don't think any of us see him drawing up the infamous jet sweet very often do we? If Kiffin could get the ball out of his quarterbacks hands faster, so can Daboll.

 

[alwayshavebeen]

IMO the biggest problem Jalen has is failing to quickly go through his progressions on pass plays. This leads to myriad of other issues.

 

[KrAzY3]

IMO the biggest problem Jalen has is failing to quickly going through his progressions on pass plays. This leads to myriad of other issues.

Which is why you need to simplify it. It's what Kiffin did for Sims and it worked. I'm deliberately sticking to one example, but how many progressions does he have to go through on a jet sweep?

I'd have to add that it's not fair to call Daboll's playcalling a complete failure, or say that Hurts is a complete failure as a pocket passer. The main issue is when a good defense is getting pressure, Hurts is in over his head. In those cases the playcaller needs to bail him out.