QB Competition 2018

[Just Win]

I really believe Jalen Hurts is a winner and I certainly don’t pin this loss completely on him. But the fact of the matter is that against elite teams he really struggles throwing the football. From what I’ve seen from Tua, his passing ability has so much more upside than Jalen. So I hope that we at least have an open QB competition in the spring and fall. Auburn beat us because they have great balance on offense. To consistently win the big time games you really have to be able to throw the football consistently. We simply have not been able to do that.

Jalen really needs to improve his ability to go through his progressions. He’s able to do that when he doesn’t have pressure. Great QB’s are able to get to their second and third reads by pocket awareness and movement that allows them to continue looking down field.

Assuming Jalen wants to play in the NFL one day, i think it's a disservice to keep playing him at QB. He should switch to RB, Slot receiver, or safety. I can guarantee you that at the skillset he has right now, not one NFL general manager or coach is looking at drafting him at QB. Great kid, great talent, just so far behind the other passing QB's right now he has no shot at playing football beyond his Bama days at QB. Unless we bring in a QB coach that can work wonders. My understanding is that he was taught in HS to look for his first receiver, then tuck and run. He was a man among boys at that level - not so now. How he plays now lends evidence to that philosophy. Not beating him up, just saying that QB is not his natural position at this high level of college football. Just my 2 cents.

 

[B1GTide]

And I'm saying if Daboll isn't willing to adjust his gameplan to better accommodate Hurts's strengths and weaknesses that is a failure of the offensive coordinator. His job is to work with the tools he has. He can see the same things you're seeing, but guess what? He gets to choose the plays! You don't choose plays that you know won't be executed!
It's like if you have a point guard that can't shoot 3s, you can't tell him to go out there and shoot 3s. You don't say look I'm drawing up good plays, you're just missing! The dude can't shoot 3s, so you call another play! Would you have been ok with AJ being used as a dual threat quarterback? I mean if they drew up really good running plays for him, but he just kept you know, not being a good runner? I mean we're talking about slow developing deep routes here, Hurts has shown an affinity for shorter stuff right? So may be less stuff he's not as good at.

Let's talk this through. First, Jalen can make those passes. He has a great arm. The only passes that he cannot seem to make are those to his far left. Everything from the middle of the field over - he can make those passes with the best of them. So, if he can make the passes why are we saying that we are asking him to do something that he cannot do? Simple answer - because he will not stay in the pocket. So, the reality, changing the routes will not help unless you only give him short routes with one read. And guess what, that is what they are doing with Fromm this year and he got destroyed by every good defense because when that route was unavailable he got sacked.

So, with Jalen you want to limit him to one read and then let him run if it is taken away. Fine. But accept that the better defenses will always take it away, and they will also spy Jalen, and you know the rest.

There is no game plan that works with Jalen if he is not willing to stand in the pocket and go through progressions. Even a pure RPO requires that he make passes down the field to loosen up the defense.

I like Jalen. He is an amazing talent. He is good enough for you to win a championship with him as long as you don't run into another buzzsaw game like Auburn. But he will never take the next step, nor will your offense, unless he learns to stand in the pocket and take a hit.

 

[B1GTide]

Which is why you need to simplify it. It's what Kiffin did for Sims and it worked. I'm deliberately sticking to one example, but how many progressions does he have to go through on a jet sweep?

Sims had one read - just one on every pass play. But on the long routes, he stood in there and took a hit to deliver those beautiful passes down the field.

 

[KrAzY3]

I like Jalen. He is an amazing talent. He is good enough for you to win a championship with him as long as you don't run into another buzzsaw game like Auburn. But he will never take the next step, nor will your offense, unless he learns to stand in the pocket and take a hit.

I agree with this actually. I think Jalen will learn as well. I just think Alabama has to find a better way to bridge the gap. He's been asked to do a lot, to run this hybrid offense, and I just think it's reached the point that they are putting too much into his hands. I just want the ball in his hands less, even if it's just hand offs. He's still a threat deep, I'm not saying Alabama should abandon longer routes, but I think they can sustain some drives and smooth over Hurts issues somewhat.

We'll see though, but my outlook is still fairly upbeat. I think both Daboll and Hurts will have to take a hard look at what they did wrong and both should be better for it.

 

[LA4Bama]

Obviously Daboll hasn't just run slow developing stuff, but going back to his days in the NFL he's always liked deep passes.

Just compare his offense to Kiffin with Sims and Hurts. It's obvious he has the ball in the quarterbacks hands longer. That part is undeniable and has to go back to certain aspects of the passing game. Also, I don't think any of us see him drawing up the infamous jet sweet very often do we? If Kiffin could get the ball out of his quarterbacks hands faster, so can Daboll.

I think the key is to not make assumptions. There are times when the ball should come out more quickly but Jalen holds it. There are times when receivers are covered and he has to hold it. There are times when the intention of the play involves a more complex route. In this third situation the problem is less Jalen and more the pass rush, but as B1G has said Jalen is also prone to make that worse by scrambling instead of standing in the pocket for a moment. Having looked at the offensive plays several times this week, I just can't give Jalen a pass simply due to play calling. But I also wouldn't put all the blame on him either. I've been saying it in different threads, but there were so many things that went wrong on so many front and so many people, I just think this was the most complete team loss I've seen. Almost everyone did something right and also something wrong, and to me it's a fool's errand to try to analyze this game for solutions.

 

[KrAzY3]

I'm not trying to drag this on forever. I don't really disagree with the basic points LA and B1G were making though. There are issues, they need to be addressed. As long as people keep a level head I think they will be addressed. I just in particular don't like the idea of anyone seeing the entire problem being one player or the entire solution lying with the removal of one player. I have faith though that whoever plays Alabama next will regret it (and I had a feeling of dread in terms of the Auburn game).

Edit: I'd also add that I'm being deliberately harsh on Daboll. It's just that he's not a college guy, he hasn't had much success as a play-caller, and while I think he's a reliable guy and is adjusting, he's still learning the college game. So, when people look at the situation and just overlook the fact that the playcaller might have room to improve as well and just assume the problem lies elsewhere, I think that's a bit unfair. Daboll is going to do his best to make Alabama's offense better though.

 

[RT27]

I feel it is more than one thing, it is a few things. Jalen as a good runner does bolt sooner than he should sometimes. ONE he needs better protection, 2 he needs to move around when the pocket shifts or collapses, not run. 3rd we need to get medium passes working before trying the deep ones. Jalen needs to progress in his reads faster, guys need to get open, and line needs to give him time to read and receivers time to get open. It takes a team to win at this level. QB gets to much praise for wins and to much blame for losses. Now if he stands in pocket, has time and still does not hit open guys deep HE is the issue, but I feel it is a team failure. OH and yes OC has to see these issues and adjust play calling to plays that we as a team can be successful at.

 

[BamaMoon]

Which is why you need to simplify it. It's what Kiffin did for Sims and it worked. I'm deliberately sticking to one example, but how many progressions does he have to go through on a jet sweep?

I'd have to add that it's not fair to call Daboll's playcalling a complete failure, or say that Hurts is a complete failure as a pocket passer. The main issue is when a good defense is getting pressure, Hurts is in over his head. In those cases the playcaller needs to bail him out.

OR, (and the coaches will decide) do you say, "We've got a guy on the bench that can make these pass plays. Why don't we give him a shot?"

I think that's what I'm hearing a bunch of folks say.

 

[BAMARICH]

There's a major omissions there, I'm not saying you did it deliberately but a lot of posters here were well aware of it (including B1G) because we discussed it several times...

Last year Kiffin gave Hurts a steady diet of underneath stuff. It wasn't all he threw, I defended him in pointing it out, but the steady complaint about Hurts was that his numbers last year were inflated by the short throws which padded his stats. There was no denying it helped to, since it accounted for something like 900 yards in the passing game. Daboll basically ripped that up and threw it away (I question the wisdom of doing that). You also conveniently only posted completions and yards, which is part of the story. Either cherry picking or just missing the big picture.

Here's his passer rating for those games (looks a bit different doesn't it? I stuck with your list):
2017:
FSU: 118.7
LSU: 123.6
Miss. State: 186.8
Auburn: 112.3
Statistically inaccurate average: 135.35


2016:
LSU: 89.4
Florida: 129.5
Washington: 84.2
Clemson: 88.1
Statistically inaccurate average: 97.8

If you can't see that he's improved, yes even against good defenses, it's because you simply refuse to see that. Daboll is asking him to do more though, which I would argue is probably too much. Anyway, if we're going to judge Hurts we need to do it fairly.

Edit: (I'm not going to figure out the actual passer rating formulas and average it, but I posted an approximation of his average for comparison sake). I'd also add that I think the playcalling situation hurts his performance against Clemson and Washington, but the improvement as a passer still shows up against better passing defenses (which LSU and Miss. State both are). One last addition. Last year people were saying he plateaued, this year people are saying he plateaued. I'm guessing this true sophomore has yet to actually plateau.

Valid point on the play calling for underneath passing, but the question still remains "is this good enough for us to win in the big games?" Since you keep harping on the play calling, has it crossed your mind to think the staff believes this is what is needed to complement our offensive game plan? Strictly going to a RPO (or a semblance of it) or short passing game may not be what's needed with our current crop of offensive players. BTW, I think Jalen has to become better at what he is if he's going to become better - his lateral quickness isn't good enough to be a true "RPO guy".

What I'm saying more than anything else is that I would like to see Tua get a shot. In limited time this year, he's looked smooth and polished... and he deserves a shot especially if the current play calling continues.

 

[B1GTide]

OR, (and the coaches will decide) do you say, "We've got a guy on the bench that can make these pass plays. Why don't we give him a shot?"

I think that's what I'm hearing a bunch of folks say.

I have never been in that camp, though some are. IMO, you would be setting Tua up to fail if you threw him in the fire now given the competition coming up, and you might ruin his confidence forever. The time for consideration of that kind of change is in the off-season.

 

[BamaMoon]

I'm not trying to drag this on forever. I don't really disagree with the basic points LA and B1G were making though. There are issues, they need to be addressed. As long as people keep a level head I think they will be addressed. I just in particular don't like the idea of anyone seeing the entire problem being one player or the entire solution lying with the removal of one player. I have faith though that whoever plays Alabama next will regret it (and I had a feeling of dread in terms of the Auburn game).

The reason the discussion is on JH is, other than the center, he's the only guy that touches the ball every down. The qb is the bottle neck thru which the whole offense runs. Not trying to be captain obvious, but that's why JH is getting all the attention right now.

 

[CoolBreeze]

The only problem with that is that the QB has to be willing to give up the ball. That has been a problem. It was a huge problem in the AU game. When he gets under pressure, he gets even less willing to give it up. Essentially, that's what beat us, if you filter out the "might have been" factors. He has to pass it (quicker) or hand it off. It wasn't in the game plan for him to have a gross distortion like equaling the number of carries by all three RBs...

I dig it, but that is a function of the game plan. Not every play has to be an RPO.

 

[BAMARICH]

Edit: I'd also add that I'm being deliberately harsh on Daboll. It's just that he's not a college guy, he hasn't had much success as a play-caller, and while I think he's a reliable guy and is adjusting, he's still learning the college game. So, when people look at the situation and just overlook the fact that the playcaller might have room to improve as well and just assume the problem lies elsewhere, I think that's a bit unfair. Daboll is going to do his best to make Alabama's offense better though.

With this point, you need to acknowledge that Kiffin last year did the same thing. Though it's true Kiffin probably took better advantage of his talents/inexperience, Kiffin also was prone to calling plays that weren't even in a game package for a specific opponent. While I tend to believe Kiffin was a better OC than Daboll, the same thing could be said to a point.

 

[BamaMoon]

I have never been in that camp, though some are. IMO, you would be setting Tua up to fail if you threw him in the fire now given the competition coming up, and you might ruin his confidence forever. The time for consideration of that kind of change is in the off-season.

I'm not saying it needs to be "right now" but I also think he's shown he could handle it if the staff gave him the chance. Instead, I'm looking to the post season bowl game (not playoffs) and especially the spring with these comments.

 

[LA4Bama]

I'm not trying to drag this on forever. I don't really disagree with the basic points LA and B1G were making though. There are issues, they need to be addressed. As long as people keep a level head I think they will be addressed. I just in particular don't like the idea of anyone seeing the entire problem being one player or the entire solution lying with the removal of one player. I have faith though that whoever plays Alabama next will regret it (and I had a feeling of dread in terms of the Auburn game).

Edit: I'd also add that I'm being deliberately harsh on Daboll. It's just that he's not a college guy, he hasn't had much success as a play-caller, and while I think he's a reliable guy and is adjusting, he's still learning the college game. So, when people look at the situation and just overlook the fact that the playcaller might have room to improve as well and just assume the problem lies elsewhere, I think that's a bit unfair. Daboll is going to do his best to make Alabama's offense better though.

This is what keeps bugging me about this conversation. On one side I hear that Jalen has improved and his passing numbers are better. If that is true it should be to Daboll's credit at least in part. Then, I hear Daboll doesn't know how to use Jalen's talents. There's a saying in logic, that you can prove anything from a contradiction.

 

[CrimsonEyeshade]

But can we now all agree there doesn't need to be so many slow routes? I mean just read the issues almost everyone is citing. Almost all of them come down to Jalen having the ball too long.

Now, look back to how Kiffin used Blake Sims. Kiffin rarely gave Sims the chance to do that. Think about it, how many of his passes were really simple reads? Even the deep passes tended to be really simple reads. More often than not though, he just got the ball out of Sims hands fast. This takes the decision making out of the QBs hands and puts it into the playcallers hands. This steady diet of slow stuff, which is just what Daboll ran in the NFL to not much success, is giving time for Hurts weaknesses to come into play. This shouldn't be the way this offense works under Hurts though! It just shouldn't. Not when Hurts could throw for 3,000 yards by getting the ball out of his hand quicker on most plays.

I'm in agreement that Hurts still needs to improve, but for the love of God call plays that make sense for the skills he has now!

Krazy, If you want to keep making the Sims/Hurts comparison, we should all acknowledge what our eyes have already told us: Blake was a far better passer than Jalen on all types of throws.

 

[BamaMoon]

Which is why you need to simplify it. It's what Kiffin did for Sims and it worked. I'm deliberately sticking to one example, but how many progressions does he have to go through on a jet sweep?

I'd have to add that it's not fair to call Daboll's playcalling a complete failure, or say that Hurts is a complete failure as a pocket passer. The main issue is when a good defense is getting pressure, Hurts is in over his head. In those cases the playcaller needs to bail him out.

Maybe "simplify it" won't work for this offense. Makes sense on the surface, but BR, speaks to this.

Since you keep harping on the play calling, has it crossed your mind to think the staff believes this is what is needed to complement our offensive game plan? Strictly going to a RPO (or a semblance of it) or short passing game may not be what's needed with our current crop of offensive players.

Krazy, If you want to keep making the Sims/Hurts comparison, we should all acknowledge what our eyes have already told us: Blake was a far better passer than Jalen on all types of throws.

That dadgum "eye test" thing is very annoying. :biggrin:

 

[B1GTide]

Krazy, If you want to keep making the Sims/Hurts comparison, we should all acknowledge what our eyes have already told us: Blake was a far better passer than Jalen on all types of throws.

Sims was great at long and short passes - suffered a bit on intermediate routes. But where there were very similar is in their ability to go through progressions. Sims was essentially a one read QB. Kiffin did a great job of scheming to ensure that the one route was going to be there, but if it wasn't Sims had to run or throw it away.

 

[KrAzY3]

OR, (and the coaches will decide) do you say, "We've got a guy on the bench that can make these pass plays. Why don't we give him a shot?"

The problem with this is because we can only infer Tua can make those plays. Remember, Hurts has actually had a lot of good days passing, it's against the best defenses when he is getting pressure that the biggest problems emerge. So, while I agree in the assumption that Tua can make those plays, it's not a certainty. The bigger issue though is can Tua make all of the plays? There are so many nuances to running an offense and even if Tua is demonstrably better in one area does not mean he's going to be as good in all of the others. In this case, I think it's something to be settled in spring. Alabama didn't bring in Tua to not let him compete for a starting job, but opening up the competition with so much on the line invites disaster. There will be growing pains (look at Sam Darnold, the best pro prospect who also became a turnover machine early in the season).

Valid point on the play calling for underneath passing, but the question still remains "is this good enough for us to win in the big games?"

We might find out the answer this year. Hurts still has the second best winning percentage of any of the Saban Alabama quarterbacks. If things get back on track, or if things devolve, I think we'll have our answer. But, I do think there's a middle ground, they have to insure they are not asking too much of Hurts, it's easy to forget he's still younger than any of the starting QBs Saban has had at Alabama. It is risky to put everything on his back.

What I'm saying more than anything else is that I would like to see Tua get a shot. In limited time this year, he's looked smooth and polished... and he deserves a shot especially if the current play calling continues.

I just think that's more a question for spring. The odd thing is after the game my gut reaction was Daboll has to go. A lot of other people had the other reaction, Hurts has to go. Alabama might very well have to choose between one or the other, but they're all in on both of them this season.

This is what keeps bugging me about this conversation. On one side I hear that Jalen has improved and his passing numbers are better. If that is true it should be to Daboll's credit at least in part. Then, I hear Daboll doesn't know how to use Jalen's talents. There's a saying in logic, that you can prove anything from a contradiction.

I have on occasion qualified it. I think Daboll has done a lot off of the field to help Hurts improve. Daboll is a pro guy, he knows what is needed and he's handled his share of NFL quarterbacks. I think his play calling has probably helped Hurts to develop. The key is developing Hurts as a pro style quarterback, and utilizing him as one are not necessarily going to be able to happen at the same pace. In other words, Hurts still needs to develop more before he can become the type of pocket passer Daboll probably wants him to be.

Krazy, If you want to keep making the Sims/Hurts comparison, we should all acknowledge what our eyes have already told us: Blake was a far better passer than Jalen on all types of throws.

That's not really true. I stood up for Sims when a lot of people thought he simply couldn't pass, but Sims was given a far less complex offense to run. Even then, Sims and Hurts put up quite comparable numbers. Given the fact that Sims had a lot of simpler passes to make, it's just not reasonable to conclude Sims was the better passer when the numbers are extremely close. Last year you might have been correct, but it doesn't hold true this year.

Sims in his senior year had a passer rating of 157.9. He threw the ball 391 times and ran 83 times for an average of 4.2. Hurts has a passer rating of 155.6 this year, he has thrown the ball 222 times and ran 137 times for an average of 5.6.

The enormous gap as you can see is that Hurts is running more and throwing less. This lead to Sims throwing for many more yards and TDs. The thing is, Sims had simple reads almost all the time. He was better at some aspects though, clearly, but don't forget he was a converted running back. Kiffin gave him an offense tailored for what he could do, and did a great job of leaving out what he couldn't do (which tended to be more of the intermediate length stuff).

 

[mlh]

Sims also had one of the best receivers we've ever had wearing Crimson to throw to - Amari Cooper. And a lot of his passes went to Cooper. In fact, I've heard Sims say he "held his breath when he threw it" waiting to see if Cooper could make the play. It helps to have a receiver you trust that much so you can just throw it up there and hope he makes the play. Sims' one read was often "find Cooper." Just saying.