Some Context (regarding coach DeBoer’s start)

[cdub55]

But where I was going with that comment, and I didn't clarify, was what the program needed was the hardcore Nick Saban approach that Nick Saban himself wasn't doing anymore and hasn't for years. I'm not sure any of the top coaches coach that way anymore.

Football is a physical and violent sport but in light of today's football culture with NIL, transfer portal, etc. I think we should just simply encourage our guys to do their best and shower them with love and adoration regardless of the outcome. Things like holding people accountable for their actions and teaching discipline is old school and out dated. We must get with the times or we will fall behind all the other programs who are.

I just puked writing this

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I highly recommend everyone who doesn't believe Nick "changed" because of parents and kids, look up this video on youtube with AJ and listen. A lot changed after the McCarron years regarding practices that may lend some answers to what we started seeing on the back end of Saban's career. Also, listen until the end and there's some information about the Kick Six game I never, ever knew. It won't make you feel better, but makes for some awesome Bama trivia.

 

[cbi1972]

I never really understood the excitement people had in getting rid of Saban's defense. I still have hope for Wommack and there have been some positive signs here and there, but if we had last years defense we likely only have 1 loss right now.

I won't say that I was excited about it, but rather it was more of a silver lining type of scenario, where with the portal meaning players spending less time in the system on average, and NIL reducing the amount of effort players are willing to commit to, the most complex, technically difficult system was going to be hard to manage. A simpler system that new players can be more ready to play in could be a good thing.

 

[gtgilbert]

This is one reason I desperately wanted to keep Saban's defense. It wasn't simply the notion of whether or not it was the best in college football, but pragmatism. The defense took Alabama to the playoffs, it wasn't broken, it worked more than well enough to get the job done. I truly believed this team had a championship shot if you just kept enough pieces together.

Well, here we are and Alabama has the #42 ranked defense and that's the lowest it's been since 2003. I said a lot of times I felt like whoever inherited Alabama was getting a sports car and all they had to do was just not crash it.

Well, either way the wheel is being reinvented, whether or not it was necessary and I think that's probably the debate taking place in a lot of people's minds. These type of struggles are normal for teams that fire their head coach, like the Texas and Georgia examples. They are not necessarily normal for teams that replace a good head coach though. I gave the Les Miles example, well Ryan Day was 3-0 after he stepped in and 13-1, so if you minimize the stuff you talked about and winning immediately certainly is possible.

So, I guess the debate is really whether or not what Saban built was rotten and needed to be rebuilt or if it was solid and just needed a fresh coat of paint. I just watched the documentary on Casa Bonita, where the South Park guys buy a restaurant and end up sinking 40 million into it after thinking less than 10 would do the job, everything was trashed and needed to be replaced. I guess that's the argument here but it raises the stakes when you basically shut things down to remodel.

A lot of people are going to be skeptical of that, and DeBoer who spent two years at his two FBS head coaching stops can't really point to his year three and four jobs to say look at how great the things I built are. So, if it does turn into ths complete rebuild, and the car is in the shop or what have you it really, really has to run incredibly well when it gets out of that shop or people are going to turn pretty fast.

While I do think that Sabans style for the front 6 is way better, even if we kept the Saban scheme and defense, we would have struggled significantly this year with the player losses we had. We would have been razor thin at OLB and really not able to use a lot of the 2olb alignments, and with the complexity of the pattern match approach in the backfield, the younger guys would be getting toasted.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

While I do think that Sabans style for the front 6 is way better, even if we kept the Saban scheme and defense, we would have struggled significantly this year with the player losses we had. We would have been razor thin at OLB and really not able to use a lot of the 2olb alignments, and with the complexity of the pattern match approach in the backfield, the younger guys would be getting toasted.

Yeah that's a valid point

 

[Bamabuzzard]

*This is an interesting analysis, but it actually could bring a lot of risk to DeBoer if it continues to play out like this.

**May be that's why he's the guy though, because he has enough of an ego to come in and go yeah I don't like the way things were done, I can do them better but man that's a lot to take on.

*DeBoer simply taking the job brought as much risk as he'll ever have at Alabama. The risk level is at its max the moment he becomes the Alabama HC. As Coach Saban recently said on the College Gameday panel, "Alabama doesn't have any patience". He ain't wrong.

**From what little I know he was an extraordinarily confident guy as a player and it has continued as a coach. He just internalizes compared to Nick externalizing. But yes, he has a big ego.

 

[bamaclimber]

For a guy who has a reputation as being highly confident, DeBoer doesn't come across that way in his press conferences. He comes across about like his quarterback did on the sidelines Saturday - like he doesn't really want to be there.

Since this thread is somewhat about DeBoer's style vs. Saban's, I think the thing we fans appreciated about Saban was that, good or bad (and even after a loss to ULM), it was clear Saban was in complete control from day one.

Here's today's press conference:

 

[JohnD]

I said prior to DeBoer being hired that he would obviously take the job because Washington was going to have to rebuild. I think part of the issue is we are dealing with a bit of a chicken and the egg type situation.

I became familiar with DeBoer's coaching last year because I was closely following Washington (lots of late games they nearly lost as I desperately cheered for them to do so, so Alabama had a better playoff chance). I was already familiar with Penix from 2020. I watched him throw for 5 TDs and 491 yards against Ohio State as he single-handedly kept Indiana in the game against Ohio State (Indiana lost by 7).

The issue was he kept getting injured and, well he played at Indiana. So, when I saw him having success at Washington, my first thought wasn't that it was a great coaching job, just that he finally got a chance to show what he could do. He to me was already obviously a great talent.

So, does Penix owe his success to DeBoer or does DeBoer owe his success to Penix? As you alluded to, Penix basically fell in his lap, he just happened to have been at Indiana the same time as Penix (DeBoer wasn't even at Indiana when Penix signed). I suspect it as a little of both, but it's another thing that's not repeatable. He doesn't have another phone-a-friend to use on a Penix caliber QB.

Which brings us to the fact that DeBoer is 17-8 at the FBS level without Penix. Penix's record as a starter at Indiana was actually 12-5 I believe (that includes games he was injured in). So, Penix had a better FBS winning percentage away from Washington than DeBoer has away from him.

There's a lot of talk of DeBoer's record, but it really doesn't look so remarkable under those circumstances does it? This year the excuse seems to be yeah, well he had to deal with an inherited QB, while part of my misgivings about the hire was yeah well Penix would have made a lot of coaches look good.

The point I was trying to make is that Penix would likely have come to Bama with DeBoer if he had eligibility and was not a high draft choice, and would be the starter here now. Or if there was another Penix (sure thing) out there, DeBoer may have grabbed him. Therefore we might not be having this conversation for that reason.
Another point is, he doesn't have nearly the same continuity with his coaching staff that he has when he first went to Washington.

 

[cdub55]

The point I was trying to make is that Penix would likely have come to Bama with DeBoer if he had eligibility and was not a high draft choice, and would be the starter here now. Or if there was another Penix (sure thing) out there, DeBoer may have grabbed him. Therefore we might not be having this conversation for that reason.
Another point is, he doesn't have nearly the same continuity with his coaching staff that he has when he first went to Washington.

Speaking of continuity. Can you imagine being a play caller and calling a play that has a guy running wide open down the field and your QB consistently missing the throw egregriously or running around like a chicken with its head cut off until he gets sacked or throws it at a linemans feet for a grounding penalty? I'm not giving any of the coaches a pass but the reality is an average to above average quarterback, which shouldn't be that hard to get with the way we recruit and the amount of money we give our players (Milroe 2.5 million), shouldn't be too much to ask.

 

[Cruloc]

Speaking of continuity. Can you imagine being a play caller and calling a play that has a guy running wide open down the field and your QB consistently missing the throw egregriously or running around like a chicken with its head cut off until he gets sacked or throws it at a linemans feet for a grounding penalty? I'm not giving any of the coaches a pass but the reality is an average to above average quarterback, which shouldn't be that hard to get with the way we recruit and the amount of money we give our players (Milroe 2.5 million), shouldn't be too much to ask.

There's a reason Rees was almost pulling his hair out in that one camera shot early last year. The guy was calling plays and losing his mind because Milroe just couldn't see open receivers.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

There's a reason Rees was almost pulling his hair out in that one camera shot early last year. The guy was calling plays and losing his mind because Milroe just couldn't see open receivers.

Yeah, I think the smoke and mirrors on Milroe are gone. He's been figured out and any improvement he did have from last season wasn't enough and he's being exposed. Even his biggest and loudest supporters have gone MIA or have publicly changed their stance. He'll drop out of the first round and possibly the second of the draft if he continues to play like this. Not that I really care. LOL!

 

[InsaneMustang]

Kirby Smart was 8-5 in his first season at UGA in 2016, with losses to Vanderbilt and Tennessee at home. The team he inherited had loads of talent and finished the previous season 10-3.

Steve Sarkisian was 5-7 in his first season at Texas in 2021, and got drilled by the likes of Arkansas and Iowa State. The team he inherited had loads of talent and finished the previous (COVID-shortened) season 7-3 and ranked #19.

Seven games in to each of those respective seasons, both coaches were 4-3 and I’m sure the fan bases were about to lose their minds.

I don’t like to lose and we’ve been extraordinarily spoiled over the last 16 years. The discipline issue are bothersome but this is not a dynamic that is unique to Alabama in 2024.

Transitions are really tough. I had this team at 9-3 prior to the season and I still think that’s about right. Honestly that would be a great success considering how the average transition season pans out for most coaches.

Give it time, folks. We can be frustrated with the penalties, the QB play, the discipline issues, etc but DeBoer will be given multiple seasons to see things out and by all accounts he’s still well-equipped to succeed.

Damn you for bringing logic to an illogical fanbase at the present time

 

[Windsortide]

Kirby Smart was 8-5 in his first season at UGA in 2016, with losses to Vanderbilt and Tennessee at home. The team he inherited had loads of talent and finished the previous season 10-3.

Steve Sarkisian was 5-7 in his first season at Texas in 2021, and got drilled by the likes of Arkansas and Iowa State. The team he inherited had loads of talent and finished the previous (COVID-shortened) season 7-3 and ranked #19.

Seven games in to each of those respective seasons, both coaches were 4-3 and I’m sure the fan bases were about to lose their minds.

I don’t like to lose and we’ve been extraordinarily spoiled over the last 16 years. The discipline issue are bothersome but this is not a dynamic that is unique to Alabama in 2024.

Transitions are really tough. I had this team at 9-3 prior to the season and I still think that’s about right. Honestly that would be a great success considering how the average transition season pans out for most coaches.

Give it time, folks. We can be frustrated with the penalties, the QB play, the discipline issues, etc but DeBoer will be given multiple seasons to see things out and by all accounts he’s still well-equipped to succeed.

Thank you great research and perspectives.

 

[Windsortide]

We are 0 for Tennessee!

SMH

 

[arthurdawg]

Yeah, I think the smoke and mirrors on Milroe are gone. He's been figured out and any improvement he did have from last season wasn't enough and he's being exposed. Even his biggest and loudest supporters have gone MIA or have publicly changed their stance. He'll drop out of the first round and possibly the second of the draft if he continues to play like this. Not that I really care. LOL!

I mean... Milroe never looked like a real QB. I felt that that CNS was trying to force him in the whole time he was coach. We were all surprised that BOB didn't like him, know we know why, but CNS apparently didn't listen. Then all of 2023 they were trying to force him in. Ty was clearly not completely ready, but I still don't understand why CNS ever brought Buchner or more likely allowed Rees to bring him in when he was pro-Milroe all the way through.

 

[RammerJammer14]

I mean... Milroe never looked like a real QB. I felt that that CNS was trying to force him in the whole time he was coach. We were all surprised that BOB didn't like him, know we know why, but CNS apparently didn't listen. Then all of 2023 they were trying to force him in. Ty was clearly not completely ready, but I still don't understand why CNS ever brought Buchner or more likely allowed Rees to bring him in when he was pro-Milroe all the way through.

He wasn’t pro-Milroe all the way. I never got the feeling that any of our staff from 2022-2023 was particularly high on Milroe. Hence why Buchner was brought in. And Buchner was NOT as bad a QB as his performance against USF would suggest. He actually was decent for ND, and all we needed was a guy who could keep the offense clicking and moving down the field. After spring practice there weren’t a whole lot of QB options available in the portal, and Buchner played for Rees at ND. Made perfect tactical sense. What Saban didn’t expect was a massive player mutiny aimed at intentionally sabotaging any QB not named Milroe and attempting to hold a gun to the staff’s head. The mistake with Buchner was failing to identify how the team would handle it, and then not appropriately dealing with the player reaction.

 

[CB4]

Given CKD basic “coach speak” press conference on Monday, then Sheridan’s kind of “snarky” response to the jump shot action on the QB sneak (“their is nothing we run on the field we do not practice”’ paraphrase) and now Shepherd’s 18 targets of Ryan Williams as “he (Milroe) was throwing it where he was suppose to” (once again paraphrasing) I get the distinct impression these guys are circling the wagons. I get the feeling these guys have never in their careers faced the scrutiny (rightly or wrongly) they are getting here. They just seem very uncomfortable having to explain performance issues and preparation and play calling.

 

[bamajas]

This is one reason I desperately wanted to keep Saban's defense. It wasn't simply the notion of whether or not it was the best in college football, but pragmatism. The defense took Alabama to the playoffs, it wasn't broken, it worked more than well enough to get the job done. I truly believed this team had a championship shot if you just kept enough pieces together.

Well, here we are and Alabama has the #42 ranked defense and that's the lowest it's been since 2003. I said a lot of times I felt like whoever inherited Alabama was getting a sports car and all they had to do was just not crash it.

Well, either way the wheel is being reinvented, whether or not it was necessary and I think that's probably the debate taking place in a lot of people's minds. These type of struggles are normal for teams that fire their head coach, like the Texas and Georgia examples. They are not necessarily normal for teams that replace a good head coach though. I gave the Les Miles example, well Ryan Day was 3-0 after he stepped in and 13-1, so if you minimize the stuff you talked about and winning immediately certainly is possible.

So, I guess the debate is really whether or not what Saban built was rotten and needed to be rebuilt or if it was solid and just needed a fresh coat of paint. I just watched the documentary on Casa Bonita, where the South Park guys buy a restaurant and end up sinking 40 million into it after thinking less than 10 would do the job, everything was trashed and needed to be replaced. I guess that's the argument here but it raises the stakes when you basically shut things down to remodel.

A lot of people are going to be skeptical of that, and DeBoer who spent two years at his two FBS head coaching stops can't really point to his year three and four jobs to say look at how great the things I built are. So, if it does turn into ths complete rebuild, and the car is in the shop or what have you it really, really has to run incredibly well when it gets out of that shop or people are going to turn pretty fast.

of all the times I’ve seen you talk about this, I’ve still yet to see who we should’ve/could’ve hired to run that D.

*Nick Saban* couldn’t hire guys as far back as 2018 to come in to run Nick Saban’s defense

 

[CB4]

He wasn’t pro-Milroe all the way. I never got the feeling that any of our staff from 2022-2023 was particularly high on Milroe. Hence why Buchner was brought in. And Buchner was NOT as bad a QB as his performance against USF would suggest. He actually was decent for ND, and all we needed was a guy who could keep the offense clicking and moving down the field. After spring practice there weren’t a whole lot of QB options available in the portal, and Buchner played for Rees at ND. Made perfect tactical sense. What Saban didn’t expect was a massive player mutiny aimed at intentionally sabotaging any QB not named Milroe and attempting to hold a gun to the staff’s head. The mistake with Buchner was failing to identify how the team would handle it, and then not appropriately dealing with the player reaction.

I think Milroe was the “default ” guy for CNS behind Bryce. We know based on Saban’s history that if a player group didn’t significantly separate themselves, the guy with most time in the program was “the next guy up”. Bryce was clearly the starter, and CNS didn’t see either as a clear number #2, so Milroe was the backup by default.

At least that’s what I think happened.

 

[crimsonaudio]

And Buchner was NOT as bad a QB as his performance against USF would suggest. He actually was decent for ND, and all we needed was a guy who could keep the offense clicking and moving down the field. After spring practice there weren’t a whole lot of QB options available in the portal, and Buchner played for Rees at ND. Made perfect tactical sense. What Saban didn’t expect was a massive player mutiny aimed at intentionally sabotaging any QB not named Milroe and attempting to hold a gun to the staff’s head.

Yup, Tom Brady would have looked like me back there behind the OL that day.

Disgusting.

In all honesty, what Saban allowed in 2023 in particular (for whatever reason) is borderline unforgivable. It literally goes against everything he preached for nearly two decades at Bama...

And now DeBoer is left to deal with the fallout.