Russia Invades Ukraine XVII

[cbi1972]

Trump is obsessed with self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment. To the extent that he can fabricate a pretense for pursuing a course of action that furthers a selfish aim, he will.

I don't think for one second his desire for peace, or any other policy, is based upon any virtuous principle whatsoever.

That he thinks it is acceptable to meet privately with Putin and has a personal very public vendetta against Zelensky should disqualify him from the benefit of any doubt on this whatsoever.

 

[Its On A Slab]

That's true. At the Casablanca Conference (Jan 1943), the Allies declared unconditional surrender of the Axis powers as the war's end.
If the West were to declare something similar in regards to Russia, we are going to need to do a hell of a lot more of everything: money, troops (and that will mean more American, and French and British, and German troops ...), more weapons, etc. Clausewitz was very clear that increased ends require increased means.

And, in the end, the Allies agreed to accept the Japanese emperor staying on his throne, even if in a more symbolic role.

A bully on the playground doesn't stop bullying just because you give him Cheetohs and your lunch money.

We as a nation are at the point where we were in 1939. America First 2.0 is saying the same things they were saying 86 years ago, when another murderous dictator set his sights on aggression.

Thankfully, Roosevelt didn't abandon our allies. Which we would have done if Lindbergh and his cohorts won the day.

 

[Tidewater]

True, but I think it would have been better for all concerned if Zelensky had just held his fire and, maybe behind closed doors, told Trump that he could not sign any deal that did not involve security guarantees.

 

[Its On A Slab]

True, but I think it would have been better for all concerned if Zelensky had just held his fire and, maybe behind closed doors, told Trump that he could not sign any deal that did not involve security guarantees.

That whole circus sideshow in the Oval Office was orchestrated, pre-planned. So obvious. Zelenskyy just walked into it. I suppose he was mistaken in thinking either the POTUS or Veep were going to be acting like adults.

 

[Tidewater]

I get that, but if the bank is about to foreclose on you house and you call a friend to ask for a thousand dollar gift to forestall the foreclosure, you should probably not lead off with “Hey butt-head.”

 

[Its On A Slab]

I get that, but if the bank is about to foreclose on you house and you call a friend to ask for a thousand dollar gift to forestall the foreclosure, you should probably not lead off with “Hey butt-head.”

In his defense, he was probably restating the obvious.

 

[Bamaro]

We not only need to restore intelligence reporting to Ukraine about Russian movements and actions but must supply Ukraine with the means to act on that intelligence. Hit Russian assets inside Russia where these drone and missle attacks originate. Put pressure on Putin and Russia so Putin can be brought down from within. Unfortunately trump is not interested in seeing Ukraine prevail over his buddy Putin. Trump somehow manages to screw up everything he touches!

 

[Bazza]

I get that, but if the bank is about to foreclose on you house and you call a friend to ask for a thousand dollar gift to forestall the foreclosure, you should probably not lead off with “Hey butt-head.”

I was trying to think of an appropriate analogy and think you just nailed it, TW.

 

[cdub55]

We not only need to restore intelligence reporting to Ukraine about Russian movements and actions but must supply Ukraine with the means to act on that intelligence. Hit Russian assets inside Russia where these drone and missle attacks originate. Put pressure on Putin and Russia so Putin can be brought down from within. Unfortunately trump is not interested in seeing Ukraine prevail over his buddy Putin. Trump somehow manages to screw up everything he touches!

Call me naive but why exactly should WE do all of this? If it is a Hitler'esque issue then why not let Europe deal with the meat and potatoes. The more we poke and prod in this issue, the easier it becomes for us to get towards the center of the bullseye in regards to Russia and Putin. We have did more than enough in regards to giving resources and intel to Ukraine in this war, assuming the money was actually used for what it was intended for, which I have serious doubts (see money laundering). The fact of the matter is, Ukraine could end this war if they are willing to be flexible. You don't beat your chest like your Mike Tyson when you look like Jerry Seinfeld.

 

[dtgreg]

A bully on the playground doesn't stop bullying just because you give him Cheetohs and your lunch money.

We as a nation are at the point where we were in 1939. America First 2.0 is saying the same things they were saying 86 years ago, when another murderous dictator set his sights on aggression.

Thankfully, Roosevelt didn't abandon our allies. Which we would have done if Lindbergh and his cohorts won the day.

People don't realize that the idiot Hitler won the war for us when he DECLARED WAR ON the UNITED STATES IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE JAP BOMBING OF PEARL HARBOR!!!! We were in no mood and that ended the footsies with Naziism right there. He bailed us out.

Had he not done this, we might have spent two or three years messing with the Japs while England and Russia fell. All the while the America First traitors would have continued holding rallies in Madison Square Garden and other places and their face, Lindburgh would have had us cut a deal with Hitler and probably allowed him to get the bomb first and be able to deliver it with his V2s.

It'll take a lot of pain and another lucky act of stupidity to get us out of this mess. I don't think that's a great bet. As they say, hope is not a strategy.

 

[Bamaro]

Call me naive but why exactly should WE do all of this? If it is a Hitler'esque issue then why not let Europe deal with the meat and potatoes. The more we poke and prod in this issue, the easier it becomes for us to get towards the center of the bullseye in regards to Russia and Putin. We have did more than enough in regards to giving resources and intel to Ukraine in this war, assuming the money was actually used for what it was intended for, which I have serious doubts (see money laundering). The fact of the matter is, Ukraine could end this war if they are willing to be flexible. You don't beat your chest like your Mike Tyson when you look like Jerry Seinfeld.

Budapest Memorandum for starters. IMO, a much better question should be why shouldn't we. Putin wont stop with Ukraine if its handed over to him the way trump wants to. Put the pressure on him the way we did to the Soviet Union until he is removed from within.

 

[AWRTR]

Budapest Memorandum for starters. IMO, a much better question should be why shouldn't we. Putin wont stop with Ukraine if its handed over to him the way trump wants to. Put the pressure on him the way we did to the Soviet Union until he is removed from within.

Are you ready to spend the money on defense necessary to push the Russians and to all but embargo them and see what that will do fuel? Go look at what the percentage of the total budget and ratio of defense spending to GDP was during the Cold War. I'm not even saying you are wrong I'm just asking are you ready to pay the price?

 

[Bamaro]

Are you ready to spend the money on defense necessary to push the Russians and to all but embargo them and see what that will do fuel? Go look at what the percentage of the total budget and ratio of defense spending to GDP was during the Cold War. I'm not even saying you are wrong I'm just asking are you ready to pay the price?

Yes. No boots on the ground is a good deal if we can stick it to Putin and stop him from going to the next country..

 

[crimsonaudio]

Budapest Memorandum for starters.

We is the US not doing it's supposed to?

1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus, and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Not to use nuclear weapons against any non–nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Are you ready to spend the money on defense necessary to push the Russians and to all but embargo them and see what that will do fuel? Go look at what the percentage of the total budget and ratio of defense spending to GDP was during the Cold War. I'm not even saying you are wrong I'm just asking are you ready to pay the price?

The bigger question is are the Europeans ready and willing to pay the price? Right now they pay more for Russian energy than they pay to support Ukraine - are they willing to turn that tap off? Are they even able to?

 

[JDCrimson]

Honestly, I think the EU countries should commit fighting troops to the effort in Ukraine provided that Ukraine conscripts fighting age Ukrainians to the war effort. The US supplies all the war kit and intelligence for the effort.

I'm sure 1 polish soldier can kill 10 Russians per day.

 

[81usaf92]

We didn't negotiate with Hitler.

Well Hitler did kinda unprovoked declare war on us and still thought that he could win the war even with the Russians taking the suburbs in Berlin. I don’t know how much negotiation there really was to have. It would be like negotiating with Jim Jones over whether people should stop drinking the Flavor Aid.

Yes we denied Himmler the ability to negotiate peace but 1) he was not running Germany and 2) if the problem is Nazism then why would you negotiate with an entity that seeks its survival?

 

[81usaf92]

Honestly, I think the EU countries should commit fighting troops to the effort in Ukraine provided that Ukraine conscripts fighting age Ukrainians to the war effort. The US supplies all the war kit and intelligence for the effort.

I'm sure 1 polish soldier can kill 10 Russians per day.

Yeah and one Russian nuke could make a large chunk of Poland uninhabitable for decades. This “Europe for Ukraine” is great, but let’s be honest… they aren’t seriously going to get involved directly in this. 1) because democracies don’t do well in long wars whereas totalitarian states are very good in them and 2) without the US nuclear arsenal do they really want to go toe to toe with the Russians?

Proxy wars happen because everyone knows a direct war between major powers and major alliances starts only one way and that is nuclear war. We have no idea what happens after that and that is a far scarier thought than even the Russians fully conquering Ukraine.

 

[81usaf92]

Budapest Memorandum for starters. IMO, a much better question should be why shouldn't we. Putin wont stop with Ukraine if its handed over to him the way trump wants to. Put the pressure on him the way we did to the Soviet Union until he is removed from within.

I don’t know if Putin has the amount of time of this earth to launch another invasion after Ukraine because the Russian military is going to have to be reorganized and its numbers and training brought back up to standards. That is going to take a generation to do, maybe more with the general Russian pace of catching up to the West. Plus the Russians are dealing with a population crisis that I’m not sure that they’ll recover from

Putin really doesn’t have many places that make sense to attack from here on either. Moldova is one of the poorest countries in Europe. He isn’t going to be stupid enough to attack Poland or Finland like all the fear mongers think. Although secretly I think he is hoping they attack him so he has every excuse to attack. I think the more logical next fight for Putin besides a fight with Death would be Turkey but it will be more proxy than hot.

 

[Tidewater]

People don't realize that the idiot Hitler won the war for us when he DECLARED WAR ON the UNITED STATES IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE JAP BOMBING OF PEARL HARBOR!!!! We were in no mood and that ended the footsies with Naziism right there. He bailed us out.

Had he not done this, we might have spent two or three years messing with the Japs while England and Russia fell.

That is an interesting question. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor 7 DEC 1941. Germany declared war on the US on 11 DEC 1941. What if he had not.
I think the US would have continued Lend-Lease to the Brits and Soviets (probably by sailing through the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean to Suez (for the Brits) and Iran (for the Soviets). Hitler might have tried to interdict that using U-boats and that would have, and then the US would be involved in Europe anyway.
Or, alternatively, the US could have sailed right through the North Atlantic and dared the Germans to attack them, which they probably would have done.