Alabama QB competition article

Early 2015 Jake Coker was worse than the worst of 2016 or 2017 Jalen Hurts too. He was not very safe with the football and made some god awful throws. Late 2015 Jake Coker was probably our third best quarterback of the Saban era behind McCarron and Blake Sims.
 
Really? The offense only struggled in a few games. Most games were over at half time.
Very true, but it seemed to me to be choppy and frustrating being unable to sustain drives to keep the defense off the field. Maybe I am just thinking of the games that weren't blow outs. It just felt like we were never in a flow last year.
 
Jake Coker in 2 playoff games:
25/30 286 yards 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Michigan State
16/25 335 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson

Jalen Hurts in 4 playoff games:
7-14 57 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against Washington
13-31 131 yards, 1 TD, 0 INTs against Clemosn

16-24 120 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson
3-8 21 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against UGA

Jake Coker had more passing yards against Clemson than Jalen Hurts has had in 4 playoff games
 
Last edited:
Jake Coker in 2 playoff games:
25/30 286 yards 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Michigan State
16/25 335 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson

Jalen Hurts in 4 playoff games:
7-14 57 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against Washington
13-31 131 yards, 1 TD, 0 INTs against Clemosn

16-24 120 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson
3-8 21 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against UGA

13-31 131 yards, 1 TD, 1 INTs against Clemson

Jake Coker had more passing yards against Clemson than Jalen Hurts has had in 4 playoff games

Guess you didn't intend to repeat the bolded line, but it is worth repeating. It is the primary reason Clemson ran 99 plays and won the ball game. Could not keep the defense off the field.
 
Last edited:
FWIW, I just went back and listened to Coach Saban's press conference post A-Day game and he was asked a question about what Jalen can do to improve over the summer.

Saban said the things he needs to work on the most like decision making and understanding how to sit in the pocket are things he can't do by himself (outside the team setting). So that'll have to wait until Fall camp. He said mechanics and accuracy are something he hopes ALL the qb's are working on.

I'd count that as another pitfall for Jalen. His biggest issues are making quick decisions passing the ball, seeing the whole field and knowing what's coming open, and getting the most out of the pocket. He could certainly improve his accuracy (don't know anything about his mechanics). But he won't be able to really address those issues and get real experience with them again until fall practice - and despite the pressure from the d-line on A-day, it still seems like he needs that development the most.

All the while Tua and he are studying the same playbook, both working on their mechanics and accuracy at the same pace.

I just don't think he's going to be able to make up enough ground between now and September when it comes to consistently and accurately delivering the ball to all portions of the field.
 
Jake Coker in 2 playoff games:
25/30 286 yards 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Michigan State
16/25 335 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson

Jalen Hurts in 4 playoff games:
7-14 57 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against Washington
13-31 131 yards, 1 TD, 0 INTs against Clemosn

16-24 120 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs against Clemson
3-8 21 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs against UGA

Jake Coker had more passing yards against Clemson than Jalen Hurts has had in 4 playoff games
And if Jake hadn't done that I see no way that we win that game.

It helped that we had at least 1 turnover, 1 special team score and 1 decently long rushing TD from Henry. (I did not know that Henry had 158 yds rushing on the night. It sure didn't feel like that much.)

But without Coker providing that diversity with his arm there's absolutely no chance that we win that game...as a matter of fact when went ahead and lost it the next year, which is pretty telling of why offensive consistency is so important. To win that game I don't even think we needed all those drives to be scoring, we just needed a few more 1st downs peppered through the game and various drives to wind down the clock and rest our defense a little longer. But we didn't have the the ability to execute through the air and they clamped down on the ground.
 
Jake Coker had more passing yards against Clemson than Jalen Hurts has had in 4 playoff games
Right, but as rgw pointed out he went from a bit of a liability to absolutely masterful playoff performance (Kiffin's playcalling was great to). That's also part of the story that's missing, Hurts unfortunately didn't get that Kiffin for the Washington or Clemson game, if he did Alabama wins another championship in my opinion.

Anyway, rushing yards still count... So over those same games Coker was -26 and Hurts had 200 yards rushing and 1TD. Not to mention the fact that Hurts didn't actually play 16 quarters, he played 14. So yeah, Coker outdid him significantly, but leaving out 200 yards rushing is a huge omission.

He's been one of the most limited passers of the Saban era, and the best running quarterback. I think we can now safely say we'd prefer it the other way around though.
 
Last edited:
Right, but as rgw pointed out he went from a bit of a liability to absolutely masterful playoff performance (Kiffin's playcalling was great to). That's also part of the story that's missing, Hurts unfortunately didn't get that Kiffin for the Washington or Clemson game, if he did Alabama wins another championship in my opinion.

Anyway, rushing yards still count... So over those same games Coker was -26 and Hurts had 200 yards rushing and 1TD. Not to mention the fact that Hurts didn't actually play 16 quarters, he played 14. So yeah, Coker outdid him significantly, but leaving out 200 yards rushing is a huge omission.

He's been one of the most limited passers of the Saban era, and the best running quarterback. I think we can now safely say we'd prefer it the other way around though.

I think a team has a MUCH better chance of winning a national title with a quarterback who can pass but is limited in running ability. Than a quarterback who can run but limited in passing ability. I'd take the former any day of the week and twigh-sst on Sundays. :D
 
Something kinda obvious that only just hit me is that running plays are way less efficient than passing plays as well. I haven't looked at/seen college data on EPA(expected point added) by play type but when you look at the NFL data its pretty stark. Basically, passing >>>>>> running the ball in the NFL and its not close. I'm sure the numbers would be pretty different in college though because of skill level gaps between teams. But, I still wonder how having a running QB impacts your offense in a more subtle way and likely causes some of the inconsistencies we suffered from under Jalen.

Also, if we want to look at it a comparison of Jalen vs Coker maybe a better gauge is yards per play? Would be curious to look at those numbers and it would at least help add Jalen's rushing yards while also adding some context that they were in fact rushing yards not passing yards.
 
Something kinda obvious that only just hit me is that running plays are way less efficient than passing plays as well.
This is overlooking one thing though, and unfortunately the quarterback takes part of that out of the equation since he runs out of bounds more often. Control of the clock. In that respect, moving down the field too fast can become a liability. Heck, one of the reasons Alabama lost to Clemson was Alabama actually scored too fast. Alabama's offense actually did better (in 2016) when Hurts was a less efficient passer who had less yards per attempt. So, sometimes it's not just about the big play.

Running the ball and shorter plays can be really important. Miss. State did it perfectly against us last year. They were not a better team. Their offense was not better. They had less rushing and less passing yards actually. But they ate up the clock and got first downs. Their QB ran the ball 21 times for only 66 yards, but it was part of an offensive philosophy. Alabama's offense under Hurts wasn't really built with that intent though and I don't think they'd ever want to use that much talent for that sort of thing.
 
Alabama's offense actually did better (in 2016) when Hurts was a less efficient passer who had less yards per attempt. So, sometimes it's not just about the big play.

I find it VERY hard to believe that there is a causation there.


This is overlooking one thing though, and unfortunately the quarterback takes part of that out of the equation since he runs out of bounds more often. Control of the clock. In that respect, moving down the field too fast can become a liability. Heck, one of the reasons Alabama lost to Clemson was Alabama actually scored too fast. Alabama's offense actually did better (in 2016) when Hurts was a less efficient passer who had less yards per attempt. So, sometimes it's not just about the big play.

Running the ball and shorter plays can be really important. Miss. State did it perfectly against us last year. They were not a better team. Their offense was not better. They had less rushing and less passing yards actually. But they ate up the clock and got first downs. Their QB ran the ball 21 times for only 66 yards, but it was part of an offensive philosophy. Alabama's offense under Hurts wasn't really built with that intent though and I don't think they'd ever want to use that much talent for that sort of thing.

Scoring quickly is only a negative in very specific situations. It's not really scoring quickly that is the problem its the times you're NOT scoring quickly that tend to be the issue and I think that played out vs Clemson. If anything scoring quickly kept us in both of those games because we couldn't move the ball consistently.

Controlling the clock is useful but IMO its a little overblown. TOP matters but I think it tends to be more of a result than a cause.
 
I find it VERY hard to believe that there is a causation there.
I was looking into numbers and what I found actually was Alabama had most of their success with relatively average quarterback play and a great running game. When Alabama aired things out the results became less consistent. Now that's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

I'm a big Saints fan, and I've used this example before, but Brees is a great QB. He wins a lot of games with his arm, but there are games he loses with them to. I pointed this out elsewhere, but for instance Blake Sims against Ohio State throws 3 picks. He had a good game throwing the ball, 237 yards and 2 TDs, but those 3 INTs were killer. So there's a live by the sword die by the sword aspect to airing it out. Running plays have less that can go wrong really. Furthermore though, if you can sustain a great running game, the stuff you do in the air becomes a bonus. The running game can just take the other team out of the game completely though, if they don't have the ball they can't score.

Alabama won championships on Mark Ingrams Heisman season, Derrick Henry's Heisman season, along with Trent Richardson and Eddie Lacy's best seasons. I'd argue it isn't good QB play that's the problem, it's just that the more you rely on QB play the more little things that can go wrong. Three of the best seasons we've seen from Alabama quarterbacks in the Saban era didn't result in championship for example (AJ's senior year, GMac's senior year and Blake's senior year).
 
I was looking into numbers and what I found actually was Alabama had most of their success with relatively average quarterback play and a great running game. When Alabama aired things out the results became less consistent. Now that's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

I'm a big Saints fan, and I've used this example before, but Brees is a great QB. He wins a lot of games with his arm, but there are games he loses with them to. I pointed this out elsewhere, but for instance Blake Sims against Ohio State throws 3 picks. He had a good game throwing the ball, 237 yards and 2 TDs, but those 3 INTs were killer. So there's a live by the sword die by the sword aspect to airing it out. Running plays have less that can go wrong really. Furthermore though, if you can sustain a great running game, the stuff you do in the air becomes a bonus. The running game can just take the other team out of the game completely though, if they don't have the ball they can't score.

Alabama won championships on Mark Ingrams Heisman season, Derrick Henry's Heisman season, along with Trent Richardson and Eddie Lacy's best seasons. I'd argue it isn't good QB play that's the problem, it's just that the more you rely on QB play the more little things that can go wrong. Three of the best seasons we've seen from Alabama quarterbacks in the Saban era didn't result in championship for example (AJ's senior year, GMac's senior year and Blake's senior year).

While I agree with all of this, other teams are catching up with Alabama on the defensive side of the ball. When you face a defense like LSU's in 2011 or Georgia's last year you had better have an elite QB or you are going to have a really hard time scoring.
 
I was looking into numbers and what I found actually was Alabama had most of their success with relatively average quarterback play and a great running game. When Alabama aired things out the results became less consistent. Now that's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

I'm a big Saints fan, and I've used this example before, but Brees is a great QB. He wins a lot of games with his arm, but there are games he loses with them to. I pointed this out elsewhere, but for instance Blake Sims against Ohio State throws 3 picks. He had a good game throwing the ball, 237 yards and 2 TDs, but those 3 INTs were killer. So there's a live by the sword die by the sword aspect to airing it out. Running plays have less that can go wrong really. Furthermore though, if you can sustain a great running game, the stuff you do in the air becomes a bonus. The running game can just take the other team out of the game completely though, if they don't have the ball they can't score.

Alabama won championships on Mark Ingrams Heisman season, Derrick Henry's Heisman season, along with Trent Richardson and Eddie Lacy's best seasons. I'd argue it isn't good QB play that's the problem, it's just that the more you rely on QB play the more little things that can go wrong. Three of the best seasons we've seen from Alabama quarterbacks in the Saban era didn't result in championship for example (AJ's senior year, GMac's senior year and Blake's senior year).
I love your reasoning....Mediocre play at QB is a good thing. I wonder if you apply that rationale when picking a surgeon or an attorney.
 
If we had much less talent, Jalen Hurts would be just the quarterback we need but we are not lacking for receiver talent so his skillset isn't necessarily what this team needs right now. 2016 was a unique situation because he was the best of a pretty lackluster QB room. Bateman was an incredibly limited passer and mediocre athlete. Cornwell was perpetually injured which limited his development. Barnett flat out couldn't perform under pressure and the entire team knew it which is why the leadership threw their weight behind Hurts. Several years of recruiting misses at QB caught up to us that year and we were fortunate to have him because his legs did make a difference in a few games that season.

The issue is that he hasn't developed as a passer despite two years of taking almost every meaningful snap outside of the start of the '16 USC game and the 2nd half of the UGA game. Every national title team had at least one game where the QB needed to sling it around to keep the championship hopes alive or seal the deal. We saw that on full display when Hurts got yanked so Tua could sling it around and loosen up that UGA defense. Barring a metamorphosis, I doubt we can win a conference or national title again without the quarterback being Tua Tagovailoa. Hurts makes our offense too easy to defend by negating the impressive talent we have at the receiver positions.
 
I love your reasoning....Mediocre play at QB is a good thing. I wonder if you apply that rationale when picking a surgeon or an attorney.
It was in response to the idea that passing is more efficient, and I pointed out Alabama has had more success when they are a great running team vs. a great passing team. Simply put, over reliance on the quarterback and the passing game is not necessarily a good thing.

Even though you completely missed out on my "reasoning" and posted a snide remark, I will explain further. Controlling the clock, moving the ball, and not turning the ball over are priorities right?

Well, let's say you pass the ball, what can happen? Most of the potential outcomes are not really the best outcomes. Incompletion (remember even a perfect pass can be dropped, or a defender can make a great play on), clock stops. Turnover, whoops. Quarterback gets sacked, ouch. Lots of not good stuff can happen. But, even if you have a successful play, there's no guarantee it really helps. For instance, you go out there, score on three plays, the final one being a 60 yard pass for a TD. That's great right? Well it is unless your defense really needed rest, now they have to go back out there tired, and could become so exhausted they never recover. Or, you're trying to bleed some clock, the guy does catch the ball and he gets shoved out of bounds. So relying on the passing game is a great way to put up points quickly, but it's not a good way to protect the football or bleed clock.

Now, let's say you have a run instead. You immediately take incompletions and sacks out of the equation. Your QB isn't likely to get hurt, the clock isn't likely to stop. You can fumble of course, but fumbles can occur on pass plays to. You're usually going to get positive yards, even if only one or two (while a dropped pass is always 0). You have the potential to wear down the defense in a way the passing game doesn't, each running play can build up momentum for future running plays, wearing down the defense systematically. You can easily keep the ball in bounds, and instead of going for chunk plays, you can eat up clock and methodically move down the field. That's part of it to though, when Alabama really had the running game going, they could not be stopped. We saw Ingram do it sometimes, and Henry do it sometimes, and there was just nothing some of those defenses could do. Those drives weren't going to be stopped by dropped passes or what not either, it was low risk, clock eating football.

So back to the point, am I saying Alabama shouldn't have a balanced offense? Not at all, what I'm saying is Alabama is best when passing is a luxury. When they are passing not because they have to, but because they want to. They are passing because the guy is open, because the defense is giving it to them (and for instance if you have a dominant running back, the defense has to play weaker defense in the secondary), because they want to keep the defense honest, etc... You want quality play from the position, but the best possible scenario is Alabama with a truly dominant running back and an offense that doesn't rely too much on the quarterback. That's the most foolproof way to win. Once Alabama starts to lean on the QB, for instance like they did in AJ's senior season (I believe that was the highest pass to run ratio), things might not go as well due to minor inconsistencies.
If we had much less talent, Jalen Hurts would be just the quarterback we need but we are not lacking for receiver talent so his skillset isn't necessarily what this team needs right now.
I agree. I think Hurts asis could be scary in hands of someone like a Dan Mullen, or an offense that really focuses on fast, quick plays and forgoes a lot of the downfield stuff (like Auburn does for example). But yeah, Alabama simply wasn't going to run an offense like Miss. State or Auburn did against Alabama, and the receivers would have none of that sort of thing either.
 
Last edited:
I find it VERY hard to believe that there is a causation there.




Scoring quickly is only a negative in very specific situations. It's not really scoring quickly that is the problem its the times you're NOT scoring quickly that tend to be the issue and I think that played out vs Clemson. If anything scoring quickly kept us in both of those games because we couldn't move the ball consistently.

Controlling the clock is useful but IMO its a little overblown. TOP matters but I think it tends to be more of a result than a cause.

The opposite of your point though, is being able to move the ball consistently. That should be the goal instead as it puts way more pressure on the other team, both on offense (getting impatient) and defense (getting worn out). That's exactly what Clemson did to us...
 
Advertisement

Trending content

Advertisement

Latest threads