Alabama QB competition article

[Evil Crimson Dragon]

We -- including me -- are starting to beat a dead horse here. I'll summarize my thoughts, and this will be my last post on the subject unless and until some new news surfaces.

Jalen Hurts winning record and passing statistics are highly misleading.
- For all but 2-3 teams a year, virtually any FBS QB could be taking snaps, and our talent level and coaching expertise is so superior, we'd win.

- Jalen's passing stats, expecially in 2016, are built in no small measure on jet sweeps...essentially a running play that is scored as a pass because the ball is in the air for about 12-24 inches.

- All QBs' performance deteriorates against elite defenses. Jalen's nosedives. But the padding generated by performance against the big number of lesser teams artificially masks the poor performance against the small number of good ones.

Highly credible posters here have stated that he has lost the confidence of the other offensive skill players. Neither running backs nor receivers are happy:
- Ignoring inaccuracy for a minute, the fact that he tends to make one read, then take off running, takes catches away from the WRs and TEs.

- Then there's the accuracy thing, repeatedly missing open receivers, or putting the ball in places where, even if the catch is made, the receiver's stride is broken, his rhythm is thrown off, and the completion doesn't yield the yardage it should have.

- Credible posters have repeatedly said that only Mike Locksley's intervention prevented mutiny in the WR ranks, probably followed by mass exodus via transfer.

- RBs aren't happy because he runs so much, even on plays designed to be handoffs, that it diminishes their value.

- We have credible reason to believe his limitations were actually used against us in recruiting.

The defense isn't happy because the repeated 3-and-outs against good teams simultaneously cause them to be on the field incessantly (defending 100 plays agains Clemson? Really?), and create a feeling of futility in their effort.

Even Saban has said that the QBs main job is to put the ball in the hands of the playmakers. Jalen doesn't do a lot of that, unless you count putting the ball in his own hands when he runs it.

His heavy tendencies undermine the effectiveness of what should be a huge strength -- the RPO. Problem is, that's Run / Pass Option. When you never throw off of it, the absence of a passing threat allows the D to ignore that, and treat the play as a designed QB run. Which, against a top 5-7 defense is death.

Jalen's towering strength is ball security. The guy may go 3-and-out a lot, but he just doesn't turn it over. Fundamentally, I remain old school: Run the ball, stop the run, win special teams, and don't turn the ball over. I detest "basketball on grass" and anything remotely approaching that.

So when I say what I'm about to say, it comes only after long and serious thought: In Jalen Hurts' case, the ball security is just too expensive in terms of lost / foregone opportunities.

Over and out on this topic unless and until something new comes up.

That’s certainly better than I could have said it.........I agree

 

[drwho]

It will just be different from what we are used to with Jalen.

Yes, but I could get used to fewer three and outs.

 

[westide]

Yes, but I could get used to fewer three and outs.

Like the second half of the National Championship game was different form the first half. I could get use to that.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Like the second half of the National Championship game was different form the first half. I could get use to that.

20 points in one half against the 5th ranked scoring defense in the country that allowed 15.7 points per game throughout the season / playoffs (13.7 PPG through the regular season and SECCG)?

Yes, please.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I again watched the national championship game this afternoon. Mrs NT17 insisted!

It really was a tale of 2 halves (a one whale of an overtime!).

My eyes tell me there is no competition, but Jalen was a valuable member of the team and a class act.

 

[PA Tide Fan]

I've watched the second half too many times to remember but I enjoyed the game tying pass to Ridley almost as much as the game winner. It was probably a more difficult pass for Tua to make since there was a lot of congestion in the end zone. If we don't convert the 4th down play there we probably lose. Good video capture showing the worry on Georgia fans faces after that TD.

Coach Saban said at his golf tournament that choosing the starter will be easy and that it's about whoever wins the team. After the stories about a near rebellion at halftime in the locker room it sure seems that Jalen lost the team at that point and after winning the game Tua won the team. I'd have to believe that the team is still behind Tua and will continue to be unless Tua throws some INT's that would actually lose us a game.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I've watched the second half too many times to remember but I enjoyed the game tying pass to Ridley almost as much as the game winner. It was probably a more difficult pass for Tua to make since there was a lot of congestion in the end zone. If we don't convert the 4th down play there we probably lose. Good video capture showing the worry on Georgia fans faces after that TD.

Coach Saban said at his golf tournament that choosing the starter will be easy and that it's about whoever wins the team. After the stories about a near rebellion at halftime in the locker room it sure seems that Jalen lost the team at that point and after winning the game Tua won the team. I'd have to believe that the team is still behind Tua and will continue to be unless Tua throws some INT's that would actually lose us a game.

Actually, the loss had been occurring, game by game, and reached a peak with the AU game. The first half of the NC game was, in effect, Jalen's final chance to prove that we could win doing it his way. I think it would have been very bad for the program, had Coach kept Jalen in for one more half...

 

[BamaMoon]

Actually, the loss had been occurring, game by game, and reached a peak with the AU game. The first half of the NC game was, in effect, Jalen's final chance to prove that we could win doing it his way. I think it would have been very bad for the program, had Coach kept Jalen in for one more half...

Earl, I think it's possible that his decision and the subsequent comeback win and NC might have bought us a couple more seasons with CNS as the HC at Bama.

A loss to Georgia and the whole SEC narrative would be so different right now. Tua's probably transferred, Georgia is the team to beat, CNS couldn't pull the trigger to make a change when it's needed, etc.

It's hard to calculate what a difference the second half comeback will make in the future.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Earl, I think it's possible that his decision and the subsequent comeback win and NC might have bought us a couple more seasons with CNS as the HC at Bama.

A loss to Georgia and the whole SEC narrative would be so different right now. Tua's probably transferred, Georgia is the team to beat, CNS couldn't pull the trigger to make a change when it's needed, etc.

It's hard to calculate what a difference the second half comeback will make in the future.

That's probably the better way to look at it, rather than just shuddering at the possible negative outcomes. He certainly has added credibility now when he says he will play the best player...

 

[Mystical]

I just don't see how anyone, except maybe Jalen's family, could see it that way. Not making the switch earlier in the year affected recruiting far more negatively that naming Tua the starter would.

I keep hearing this. Who are all these guys we lost because of Jalen? Most of the receivers cited our depth chart and young studs at receiver for not coming. Who could have signed with us and unseated the studs we have coming back?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I keep hearing this. Who are all these guys we lost because of Jalen? Most of the receivers cited our depth chart and young studs at receiver for not coming. Who could have signed with us and unseated the studs we have coming back?

I'm not sure we have lost anyone yet because of Jalen. They'd never admit it, anyway...

 

[B1GTide]

I'm not sure we have lost anyone yet because of Jalen. They'd never admit it, anyway...

Agreed - I think that it would have happened if Jalen had stayed in the game and Alabama lost to GA after the loss the previous year to Clemson. Heck, I think that things would look very, very different right now had Saban left Jalen in that game. So it is not so much who you have lost as what the future would look like.

 

[Crimson White]

Actually, the wide receiver that signed with Clemson, the highest rated wr in the state of Alabama, said earlier in the year that he didn't like Alabama's offense (paraphrasing). Since our offense with Tua at the helm is way different, I guess that's an indictment of Hurts and the offense we ran when he was behind center.

This is not the article I was talking about because it's not his direct quote, but, “Jalen Hurts
probably hurt their chances with Ross. Alabama is probably selling the fact that it’s going to have a passing quarterback and they’re going to open up the offense and pass with Locksley as the new offensive coordinator. ...https://n.rivals.com/news/take-two-will-alabama-keep-state-s-top-player-justyn-ross-home-

More...
The 6-foot-4, 197-pound prospect was in Atlanta for the game where he saw Jalen Hurts complete 10 of 18 pass attempts and only throw for fewer than 100 yards. Calvin Ridley was the only wide receiver to have a reception in that game.

While, clearly, Alabama got the result it wanted in the game, for a wide receiver with options, it was not a performance that was exciting.
“I feel like they could have opened it up a bit more, but they didn’t really have a chance to reveal their passing game too much,” Ross said.
When asked what the Tide have to do to impress him moving forward, his answer centered around making sure other receivers outside of Ridley are involved.
“I do feel like they have to spread the ball around more, but it’ll come in due time,” Ross said. “I was expecting a bit more, to be honest. I didn’t get that. I’ll probably get that in the future, though.”
That did change in the Fresno State game this past weekend. Eight receivers or tight ends caught passes against the Bulldogs, but none of the pass catchers had more than 45 yards.
I have heard from several recruits who have said other programs have negatively recruited against Alabama when it comes to the team’s passing offense. It didn’t hurt the Tide in the 2017 class as they signed four of the nation’s best in Henry Ruggs III, Jerry Jeudy, DeVonta Smith and Tyrell Shavers.

Alabama has some work to do.

https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/alabama-crimson-tide-recruiting-justyn-ross-auburn-tigers-clemson-tigers

I would note that the receivers signed in the 2017 class had been recruited for years, back when we had a legitimate passing offense, and yes, I do know the statistics for 2016. Kiffin did an admirable job, imo, working with what he had, with the jet sweeps, the quick outs, etc.

 

[B1GTide]

Actually, the wide receiver that signed with Clemson, the highest rated wr in the state of Alabama, said earlier in the year that he didn't like Alabama's offense (paraphrasing). Since our offense with Tua at the helm is way different, I guess that's an indictment of Hurts and the offense we ran when he was behind center.

This is not the article I was talking about because it's not his direct quote, but, “Jalen Hurts
probably hurt their chances with Ross. Alabama is probably selling the fact that it’s going to have a passing quarterback and they’re going to open up the offense and pass with Locksley as the new offensive coordinator. ...https://n.rivals.com/news/take-two-will-alabama-keep-state-s-top-player-justyn-ross-home-

Thanks - had not heard that.

 

[CrimsonForce]

Actually, the wide receiver that signed with Clemson, the highest rated wr in the state of Alabama, said earlier in the year that he didn't like Alabama's offense (paraphrasing). Since our offense with Tua at the helm is way different, I guess that's an indictment of Hurts and the offense we ran when he was behind center.

Clemson's downfield passing wasn't much better with Kelly Bryant. I realize they have a better track record from when Watson was there but the WR you're referencing was looking for PT. He can get that at Clemson but not at Alabama due to our loaded WR position. Same reason we didn't sign the top rated RB. That position group is just overloaded right now and some prospects don't want to come in and sit behind Harris, Harris, Jacobs, Robinson, etc..

 

[BamaMoon]

Actually, the wide receiver that signed with Clemson, the highest rated wr in the state of Alabama, said earlier in the year that he didn't like Alabama's offense (paraphrasing). Since our offense with Tua at the helm is way different, I guess that's an indictment of Hurts and the offense we ran when he was behind center.

This is not the article I was talking about because it's not his direct quote, but, “Jalen Hurts
probably hurt their chances with Ross. Alabama is probably selling the fact that it’s going to have a passing quarterback and they’re going to open up the offense and pass with Locksley as the new offensive coordinator. ...https://n.rivals.com/news/take-two-will-alabama-keep-state-s-top-player-justyn-ross-home-

More...
The 6-foot-4, 197-pound prospect was in Atlanta for the game where he saw Jalen Hurts complete 10 of 18 pass attempts and only throw for fewer than 100 yards. Calvin Ridley was the only wide receiver to have a reception in that game.

While, clearly, Alabama got the result it wanted in the game, for a wide receiver with options, it was not a performance that was exciting.
“I feel like they could have opened it up a bit more, but they didn’t really have a chance to reveal their passing game too much,” Ross said.
When asked what the Tide have to do to impress him moving forward, his answer centered around making sure other receivers outside of Ridley are involved.
“I do feel like they have to spread the ball around more, but it’ll come in due time,” Ross said. “I was expecting a bit more, to be honest. I didn’t get that. I’ll probably get that in the future, though.”
That did change in the Fresno State game this past weekend. Eight receivers or tight ends caught passes against the Bulldogs, but none of the pass catchers had more than 45 yards.
I have heard from several recruits who have said other programs have negatively recruited against Alabama when it comes to the team’s passing offense. It didn’t hurt the Tide in the 2017 class as they signed four of the nation’s best in Henry Ruggs III, Jerry Jeudy, DeVonta Smith and Tyrell Shavers.

Alabama has some work to do.

https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/...ting-justyn-ross-auburn-tigers-clemson-tigers

I remember his comments about our situation and I hoped the second half of the NC game would have swayed him.

But I think it was too little too late and he had already formed some deep bonds with the Clemson program.

I wish him well and success (unless we play them) but I hope our offense becomes so dynamic that he regrets his decision.

 

[gman4tide]

I remember his comments about our situation and I hoped the second half of the NC game would have swayed him.

But I think it was too little too late and he had already formed some deep bonds with the Clemson program.

I wish him well and success (unless we play them) but I hope our offense becomes so dynamic that he regrets his decision.

The way the transfer rules keep migrating...he may be able to be on campus this fall. :wink:

 

[CrimsonForce]

I remember his comments about our situation and I hoped the second half of the NC game would have swayed him.

But I think it was too little too late and he had already formed some deep bonds with the Clemson program.

I wish him well and success (unless we play them) but I hope our offense becomes so dynamic that he regrets his decision.

I don't think he was ever coming to Alabama anyhow. Look at our WR position group - he wouldn't see the field for 2 years unless there were several injuries. He can go to Clemson and start from day 1. Same reason we didn't sign a top rated RB - we're just to stacked at that position. Some prospects like to come in and compete and some don't. This cat didn't want to come in and compete and that's fine but nobody was talking about how the offense was hurting recruiting when we signed the best WR group ever the year prior. Of course the WR recruiting would be down the next year in 2018. Now, I fully admit that if we continued to show a hamstrung offense it definitely could have hurt us in future recruiting classes but I don't buy it hurting the 2018 class..

 

[Loam]

I'm all in with Tua. This is his team now. I think if Hurts were named the starter, it would create a rift on this team and some drama in the locker room. I hate saying that, but I do feel like its true and I think probably 99% of the roster deep down believes that Tua should be the starter going forward, no question.

 

[BamaInBham]

I keep hearing this. Who are all these guys we lost because of Jalen? Most of the receivers cited our depth chart and young studs at receiver for not coming. Who could have signed with us and unseated the studs we have coming back?

On the one hand I agree that the "mutiny" reported by some is likely over stated, on the other, Bama may have lost any shot at Justin Ross because of last year's passing game. They almost got back in, and he stated indirectly that it was because of Tua's insertion into the NC game. It's impossible to know who, if there was someone else. Fortunately, last year was the year to lose someone(s), with the returning receivers and signing Waddle, who may be breathtaking.

Edit: I did not see all of the posts related to Ross before I posted. Though my quote from him was after the NC game, and it made it clear in a diplomatic way that Tua's performance opened his eyes regarding the possibilities of Bama's passing attack. But as someone else noted, it was too late by then.

For those who say that Ross wasn't coming anyway, while it's impossible to know, Bama did lose all 3 starters. 6 WRs usually play. I.e., there would have been opportunity for Ross if he is as advertised. Plus Bama still does not have anyone like Ross: 6'4" and physical and talented. IMO, there would have been a role for him.