BSC in danger of closing

[CrimsonJazz]

Once you get out of STEM areas, too many course have become a matter of simply parroting back whatever the instructor says. Attempt to engender critical thinking skills and you get accused of attempting to indoctrinate students (that problem also exists at the high school level).

I have to agree with AWRTR. This is backwards from what I have observed and heard about. My oldest graduated college a little over a year ago and my youngest is in college now. It didn't used to be this way, but critical thinking isn't appreciated unless it conveniently matches whatever dreck opinion the instructor is bandying about. Deviation from the "norm" can cost you on your final grade.

 

[crimsonaudio]

When I hire people I pay little attention to their degrees anymore. The most widely given grade is an A. Grade inflation is a real problem.

As someone with chirruns currently in and just out of college, I can see this being an issue in many of the degrees handed out today, but can attest that As are still earned in the medical and aerospace fields of study.

 

[AWRTR]

As someone with chirruns currently in and just out of college, I can see this being an issue in many of the degrees handed out today, but can attest that As are still earned in the medical and aerospace fields of study.

You are right. Those fields are tough as they should be. People's lives are at stake in both.

 

[jthomas666]

I have to agree with AWRTR. This is backwards from what I have observed and heard about. My oldest graduated college a little over a year ago and my youngest is in college now. It didn't used to be this way, but critical thinking isn't appreciated unless it conveniently matches whatever dreck opinion the instructor is bandying about. Deviation from the "norm" can cost you on your final grade.

Sounds you you both have a different definition of critical thinking. When I taught critical thinking, the conclusion wasn't as important as the path you took to get there.

Granted, I'm talking about composition and literature; perhaps most of the cries of indoctrination are coming from different classes.

 

[AWRTR]

Sounds you you both have a different definition of critical thinking. When I taught critical thinking, the conclusion wasn't as important as the path you took to get there.

Granted, I'm talking about composition and literature; perhaps most of the cries of indoctrination are coming from different classes.

Well, then what is your definition? I still think we may be talking past each other.

 

[jthomas666]

Well, then what is your definition? I still think we may be talking past each other.

It's possible. As I said, for me the conclusion wasn't as important as how you reached the conclusion. Is your evidence applicable, is your reasoning sound, etc. I don't consider having students parrot information back to be indoctrination--nor do I consider it to be particularly effective teaching.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

It's possible. As I said, for me the conclusion wasn't as important as how you reached the conclusion. Is your evidence applicable, is your reasoning sound, etc. I don't consider having students parrot information back to be indoctrination--nor do I consider it to be particularly effective teaching.

I think the problem here is that the whole parroting thing isn't any sort of thinking, critical or otherwise. Rote memorization isn't particularly impressive, either. So we agree, that just telling an instructor what they want to hear without examination of evidence is a lack of thinking at all? If so, this is good.

 

[AWRTR]

It's possible. As I said, for me the conclusion wasn't as important as how you reached the conclusion. Is your evidence applicable, is your reasoning sound, etc. I don't consider having students parrot information back to be indoctrination--nor do I consider it to be particularly effective teaching.

I agree with a lot of that. Sincere intelligent people can come to different conclusions. I do think the conclusion is important. You need to be able to give a reasoned defense of your conclusion based in evidence.

If students are made to feel inferior or bad because they don't agree with what they are being asked to parrot then I do consider that indoctrination.

 

[Tidewater]

Well, then what is your definition? I still think we may be talking past each other.

When I was teaching in Britain, we used Paul's and Elder's definition:
Critical thinking is that mode of thinking – about any subject, content, or problem — in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them. (Paul and Elder, 2001). The Paul-Elder framework has three components:

1. The elements of thought (reasoning)
2. The intellectual standards that should be applied to the elements of reasoning
3. The intellectual traits associated with a cultivated critical thinker that result from the consistent and disciplined application of the intellectual standards to the elements of though

I added the ancient Vulcan proverb: challenge your assumptions or they will challenge you.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

I’ll be honest, I had to study hard in college. It wasn’t easy at all. I made mostly A’s and a few B’s, but had to study hard because I didn’t take any layup courses.

It surprises me to learn that the most common grade in college now is an A. That does indeed degrade the degree.

In architecture, the B students end up working for the C students and the A students teach.

 

[Tidewater]

Paul and Elder.
Elements of Thought (reasoning)
The "parts" or elements of thinking are as follows:

1. All reasoning has a purpose
2. All reasoning is an attempt to figure something out, to settle some question, to solve some problem
3. All reasoning is based on assumptions
4. All reasoning is done from some point of view
5. All reasoning is based on data, information and evidence
6. All reasoning is expressed through, and shaped by, concepts and ideas
7. All reasoning contains inferences or interpretations by which we draw conclusions and give meaning to data
8. All reasoning leads somewhere or has implications and consequences

 

[Tidewater]

Universal Intellectual Standards
The intellectual standards that are to these elements are used to determine the quality of reasoning. Good critical thinking requires having a command of these standards. According to Paul and Elder (1997, 2006), the ultimate goal is for the standards of reasoning to become infused in all thinking so as to become the guide to better and better reasoning. The intellectual standards include:

Clarity
Could you elaborate?
Could you illustrate what you mean?
Could you give me an example?

Accuracy
How could we check on that?
How could we find out if that is true?
How could we verify or test that?

Precision
Could you be more specific?
Could you give me more details?
Could you be more exact?

Relevance
How does that relate to the problem?
How does that bear on the question?
How does that help us with the issue?

Depth
What factors make this difficult?
What are some of the complexities of this question?
What are some of the difficulties we need to deal with?

Breadth
Do we need to look at this from another perspective?
Do we need to consider another point of view?
Do we need to look at this in other ways?

Logic
Does all of this make sense together?
Does your first paragraph fit in with your last one?
Does what you say follow from the evidence?

Significance
Is this the most important problem to consider?
Is this the central idea to focus on?
Which of these facts are most important?

Fairness
Is my thinking justifiable in context?
Am I taking into account the thinking of others?
Is my purpose fair given the situation?
Am I using my concepts in keeping with educated usage, or am I distorting them to get what I want?


I think these are pretty good guidelines.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

Update on BSC: There is (or was) a contract in place for some months whereby Miles College would buy the BSC campus.

Miles was unable to close, and asked for an extension on the closing date. That extension was granted, but expired yesterday. Miles asked for a second extension, which BSC's Board of Trustees declined.

IOW, there is no longer a potential sale on the table, and BSC is back to square one on the sale.

All those are facts. My own speculation follows:

I'm guessing that Miles, a private school, can't access state funds and couldn't arrange private financing for the purchase.

Here's the stuff I'm deadly curious about: Who actually owns the property, and what are the liens on it. Both those of record (like any mortgages) and those not necessarily of record (like monies owed to various vendors, as well as mechanics & materialmen's liens). And any property taxes owed -- BSC was non-profit, so it didn't pay income tax. But I'm not sure whether it would owe property taxes.

I'm also deadly curious as to the lenders' internal accounting for the asset. As in, have they already written it off, and any monies they got from the sale would represent recoveries? Or do they have a book balance still at stake? Have the lenders funded maintenance of the property -- referred to in the industry as a "protective advance"? Or has the property been vacant and deteriorating since BSC closed in May?

As posted earlier, the market for a college campus is highly limited -- primarily other colleges. So I fear the real value of the 192-acre campus is as vacant land in a sketchy part of Birmingham, less the cost of demolition.

 

[JDCrimson]

They would owe property taxes even as a not for profit.

Update on BSC: There is (or was) a contract in place for some months whereby Miles College would buy the BSC campus.

Miles was unable to close, and asked for an extension on the closing date. That extension was granted, but expired yesterday. Miles asked for a second extension, which BSC's Board of Trustees declined.

IOW, there is no longer a potential sale on the table, and BSC is back to square one on the sale.

All those are facts. My own speculation follows:

I'm guessing that Miles, a private school, can't access state funds and couldn't arrange private financing for the purchase.

Here's the stuff I'm deadly curious about: Who actually owns the property, and what are the liens on it. Both those of record (like any mortgages) and those not necessarily of record (like monies owed to various vendors, as well as mechanics & materialmen's liens). And any property taxes owed -- BSC was non-profit, so it didn't pay income tax. But I'm not sure whether it would owe property taxes.

I'm also deadly curious as to the lenders' internal accounting for the asset. As in, have they already written it off, and any monies they got from the sale would represent recoveries? Or do they have a book balance still at stake? Have the lenders funded maintenance of the property -- referred to in the industry as a "protective advance"? Or has the property been vacant and deteriorating since BSC closed in May?

As posted earlier, the market for a college campus is highly limited -- primarily other colleges. So I fear the real value of the 192-acre campus is as vacant land in a sketchy part of Birmingham, less the cost of demolition.