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Coach Saban's defensive complexity

bamadws56

bamadws56

All-SEC
Sep 24, 2005
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I saw another poster ask this in another thread and it got me to wondering. People always talk about how complex Coach Saban's defense is, especially for the secondary. Looking at what happened this season, with most of our touchdowns coming off of busted coverages, is the system so complex as to be a liability?

We had a difficult situation this year with replacing 9 starters. Should Coach dumb it down some in years like this and slowly bring the defense along? Does his system even allow for it (i.e. can you run a 3/4 over under that lacks complexity and still be effective)?

Disclaimer:This is not a "I am questioning if Coach Saban knows what he is doing" post. I would just like some frank and open discussion about what posters think.
 
bamadws56 said:
I saw another poster ask this in another thread and it got me to wondering. People always talk about how complex Coach Saban's defense is, especially for the secondary. Looking at what happened this season, with most of our touchdowns coming off of busted coverages, is the system so complex as to be a liability?

We had a difficult situation this year with replacing 9 starters. Should Coach dumb it down some in years like this and slowly bring the defense along? Does his system even allow for it (i.e. can you run a 3/4 over under that lacks complexity and still be effective)?

Disclaimer:This is not a "I am questioning if Coach Saban knows what he is doing" post. I would just like some frank and open discussion about what posters think.
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I have no doubt that Saban adapts to his defense, but he keeps the big picture from season to season. To do otherwise would compromise the "learning."
Regardless of defensive scheme, if two of your top three CBs are in the first year on campus, you are going to have busted coverages.
 
I don't know if you can, but I doubt that you should. Sometimes you have to throw new players into the fire at the top level, because that may be the only way they can learn. You have to live with the growing pains, but the legth of time for that should be shorter.
 
GreatDanish said:
I have no doubt that Saban adapts to his defense, but he keeps the big picture from season to season. To do otherwise would compromise the "learning."
Regardless of defensive scheme, if two of your top three CBs are in the first year on campus, you are going to have busted coverages.
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Exactly. With a year under their belt, though, those mistakes should be at an absolute minimum in 2011.
 
Particularly early on, even to my untrained eye, the defense was "dumbed down." There were a few threads on it after the Arkansas and USCe games, and I remember some pretty knowledgeable posters here weighing in. I don't think you can call anything a CNS/Kirby Smart defense does rudimentary, but it was obvious they were trying to keep some our CBs out of trouble in the first half of 2010. The Arkansas game is a good example of the staff adjusting to what the personal did or didn't do well; In fact, CNS said after the Arkansas game that, at halftime, the staff decided "if we're going to get beat anyway, we might as well bring pressure."

Dareus missing the first 2 games and the whole D-line looking like a mash unit set the defense back a lot imo. Everyone knew how young the secondary was, but I was hoping that we'd get more pressure this year with a 3 and 4 man pass rush. JessN had a great piece after the dismantling of Sparty addressing the what-ifs - imagine if MD and Upshaw lived in the backfield all season like they did during the Capital One Bowl...
 
GreatDanish said:
I have no doubt that Saban adapts to his defense, but he keeps the big picture from season to season. To do otherwise would compromise the "learning."
Regardless of defensive scheme, if two of your top three CBs are in the first year on campus, you are going to have busted coverages.
Click to expand...

You're right on there... Our guys just made bad mistakes; they were very young this year. You can't fix every single problem with any one defensive scheme. I agree that the secondary was a lot of the problem, but it was a combination of the D-line not getting penetration (which caused the QB to have a lot of time to find open WR's), the safeties and the CB's with their blown coverages, and the fact that our LB's weren't as good as last year. Our entire defense was good if you compare how bad we could have been. Alabama fans want perfection every year and even with a Saban-taught team it just won't happen. I'm with a lot of folks when they say that if the defense would have been better we could have gone and won another NC, but it wasn't practical this year. (remember the pre-season predictions of 2-3 losses?) Considering the lack of experience in the 2ndary, and all the injuries which sort of caught up with us from the past two years, we did just great. CNS did the best job he could with the guys he had to work with. Now I'm looking forward to what's next in the near future for the team. I don't doubt we could take some more SEC (at least) titles again in the next few years!
 
bamadws56 said:
I saw another poster ask this in another thread and it got me to wondering. People always talk about how complex Coach Saban's defense is, especially for the secondary. Looking at what happened this season, with most of our touchdowns coming off of busted coverages, is the system so complex as to be a liability?

We had a difficult situation this year with replacing 9 starters. Should Coach dumb it down some in years like this and slowly bring the defense along? Does his system even allow for it (i.e. can you run a 3/4 over under that lacks complexity and still be effective)?

Disclaimer:This is not a "I am questioning if Coach Saban knows what he is doing" post. I would just like some frank and open discussion about what posters think.
Click to expand...

If we win 10 in rebuilding years, and win them all some years with this complex system, I am ok with that.
 
Coach Saban is never going to abandon his philosophy, and the complexity is inherent to the scheme. Very few teams run "pattern read" in college, but Saban always will. In layman's terms it's kind of a blend of zone and man. Instead of being responsible for anyone that comes into a specific area of the field (zone), or instead of being assigned a specific receiver from before the snap until the whistle blows (man), pattern reading involves playing to an area and then different defenders covering different receivers based on how the offensive play develops. It is complex, but it is very effective.

Saban emphasizes execution. I think he will always default to the player who most often knows his assignment, rather than the player who is "lost" on a significant number of plays but has the physical ability to make spectacular plays. That is how a walk on like Will Lowery could earn such significant playing time this season.
 
There was some busted coverage here and there, yes. In two of Bama's 3 losses, the opposing QB had to play his best game EVER. Look at Garcia - we saw his true playing ability in USCe's last 2 games; those games were nothing like he was against Bama. Jordan Jefferson started improving as the season progressed and had a heck of a game against UA.

I think the secondary will be much improved next year, and the secondary wasn't too shabby this year. The problem belongs to the front seven IMO. It's been said plenty already and will be said a thousand times more before next September: the secondary has plenty of experience and is TALENTED.
 
RTR91 said:
I think the secondary will be much improved next year, and the secondary wasn't too shabby this year. The problem belongs to the front seven IMO. It's been said plenty already and will be said a thousand times more before next September: the secondary has plenty of experience and is TALENTED.
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For better or worse, we will get to see what Coach Rumph can do with the D line.
 
IMHO the defense Bama runs requires all positions to execute... early last year Hightower was playing the wrong position and the DL was not effective due to injuries etc..After Hightower was moved back to his old position the LB play in general greatly improved. As the injuries healed the DL play improved also.
 
While i agree you cant completely change your philosophy just because there are some young players starting... i think they have pushed some players out that had huge potential to be playmakers by making it so complex some of these kids just cant grasp it

i.e. 4 & 5 stars that come in with all the potential in the world but fail to even see the field (supposedly because they cant learn the system)

there have been times when i was watching the defense this year and it was like they were trying so hard to not make a mistake instead of flying to the ball and making plays... IMO thats due to having a vast, complex system that unless you're absolutely sure about what you're doing, you end up looking lost

it's a good question, where there's probably more than one good answer


RTR:BigA:
 
I don't think Coach Rumph would be in Tuscaloosa if Coach Saban didn't think he would improve the play of our DLine.
 
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BamasRollin said:
While i agree you cant completely change your philosophy just because there are some young players starting... i think they have pushed some players out that had huge potential to be playmakers by making it so complex some of these kids just cant grasp it

i.e. 4 & 5 stars that come in with all the potential in the world but fail to even see the field (supposedly because they cant learn the system)

there have been times when i was watching the defense this year and it was like they were trying so hard to not make a mistake instead of flying to the ball and making plays... IMO thats due to having a vast, complex system that unless you're absolutely sure about what you're doing, you end up looking lost

it's a good question, where there's probably more than one good answer


RTR:BigA:
Click to expand...

I would argue that of the players that have been "pushed out", their problems had more to do with commitment and less to do with insufficient intelligence. We are talking football, after all, not quantum physics. The only way players "play fast" is without having to think. The only way to execute without having to think is quality reps. There are two ways to get quality reps: you practice at a high standard (applying pressure to yourself) or you get quality reps in a game (where you are really trying to do your best.) Some of our young guys had to learn this year that you can't wait until Saturday and "flip a switch." Ideally, youngsters could be brought along more slowly, getting quality reps in games where the outcome was no longer in question. However, our depth situation in 2010 dictated that some guys who weren't yet prepared were going to have to start. I think this type of year will be the exception rather than the rule going forward under Saban.
 
Great guys, thanks for the info. I absolutely agree that this year would definately be the exception, when else are we going to lose 9 defensive starters, and not have a whole lot of quality depth behind them (since the secondary back ups either graduated like King, or washed out like Lawerence)? It is also absolutely true that there is no better defensive system when it is clicking, we were a night mare for everyone last year! I am so excited to see what our battle tested defense can do next year!
 
UAME said:
I would argue that of the players that have been "pushed out", their problems had more to do with commitment and less to do with insufficient intelligence. We are talking football, after all, not quantum physics. The only way players "play fast" is without having to think. The only way to execute without having to think is quality reps. There are two ways to get quality reps: you practice at a high standard (applying pressure to yourself) or you get quality reps in a game (where you are really trying to do your best.) Some of our young guys had to learn this year that you can't wait until Saturday and "flip a switch." Ideally, youngsters could be brought along more slowly, getting quality reps in games where the outcome was no longer in question. However, our depth situation in 2010 dictated that some guys who weren't yet prepared were going to have to start. I think this type of year will be the exception rather than the rule going forward under Saban.
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Thanks for the pep talk coach.... seriously though intelligence doesn't always go hand in hand with athletic ability and in a lot of cases is the opposite... i'm sure to some of these kids that playbook does look like quantum physics... there have been more than one instance where an elite athlete signed with us and never got any meaningful playing time because they couldn't grasp the defensive philosophy... we're talking about kids that were ranked top 5 at their positions coming out of HS never seeing the field in a meaningful situation.... pretty big of you to throw the kids under the bus and blame them for being lazy

BTW the players i'm referring to are said to have excellent attitudes and work ethic, and are not able to grasp the scheme... that's why they aren't playing.... so i think it's definitely a question worth asking, if Saban's scheme could be simplified in order to get these elite athletes on the field instead of on the bench for years and then transferring
 
BamasRollin said:
Thanks for the pep talk coach.... seriously though intelligence doesn't always go hand in hand with athletic ability and in a lot of cases is the opposite... i'm sure to some of these kids that playbook does look like quantum physics... there have been more than one instance where an elite athlete signed with us and never got any meaningful playing time because they couldn't grasp the defensive philosophy... we're talking about kids that were ranked top 5 at their positions coming out of HS never seeing the field in a meaningful situation.... pretty big of you to throw the kids under the bus and blame them for being lazy

BTW the players i'm referring to are said to have excellent attitudes and work ethic, and are not able to grasp the scheme... that's why they aren't playing.... so i think it's definitely a question worth asking, if Saban's scheme could be simplified in order to get these elite athletes on the field instead of on the bench for years and then transferring
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Are you on the staff? Have some intimate knowledge the rest of us aren't privy too? I'm asking because CNS would never announce that player x left because he's not bright enough to handle what we're doing.
 
RJ YellowHammer said:
Are you on the staff? Have some intimate knowledge the rest of us aren't privy too? I'm asking because CNS would never announce that player x left because he's not bright enough to handle what we're doing.
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Really??? you want me to start naming the names of players that we signed as 4 & 5 stars that ARE KNOWN to have STRUGGLED with the scheme and thus not playing and some have transferred and some are looking to transfer.... has your head been buried in the sand for the last 3 years??
 
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