Donovan kicks NIT-bound Gators out of $12 million practice facility
- Thread starter Ldlane
- Start date
What's all this talk about "fear"? AFAIK, there are no reports saying that Donovan abuses his players by beating, hitting, kicking, or threatens them with physical abuses. I think "embarrassment" is being misread as "fear."
One of the things young people hate the worst is "disrespect," as if any of them has done anything to earn respect yet. What Donovan is doing is embarrasing them -- kicking them out of the palace, suspending their right to wear UF gear, etc. He's "disrespecting" them to get the point across that they've not earned anything yet, that they don't have any laurels to rest on.
There's a saying among great teachers/coaches that "You can be friendly with your students [players], but you can't be their friend." Maybe when they're no longer your student/player you can be their friend, but as long as you are the teacher/coach, you can't be their friend; you have to do what's best for them in the long run, not necessarily what feels good right now. If you try to be their friend, you will eventually have to make a decision that they won't like, and the fallout (especially with young people) will destroy any relationship you have until they are mature enough to see the bigger picture.
It would have been easy for Donovan to say nice things, soothe egos, pep talk the Baby Gators. That wouldn't have been good for the players or the program in the long run, however, since that would have reinforced the idea that they are somehow "special" and are entitled to to the trappings of an elite program even if they are unwilling to do what it takes to be an elite program.
Even though UF fans have been reportedly very patient with this team, someone has to hold their feet to the fire, and that someone is Donovan.
I think it's interesting to watch the number of posters who prefer a "players' coach" mentality. It is my opinion (based on my years of watching and participating in organized sports) that the players' coach method works well in the professional ranks, since the entire system is based on a business-like approach: it's your job, you're an adult, and it's your choice to work out in the offseason or not, to work on your game or not, etc. I also think that the players' coach method fails miserably at lower levels of competition. It may work for a short while, but it inevitably fails. There are countless examples across sports of this failure.
Why does the players' coach system fail at the amateur level? Because the players may be amateurs, but the coach is not. The heralded players think they will always be stars, that they'll always be the top dog. That there will always be a bright future for them. That the rules will always be tailored to allow them to slide on a greased path. 18-22 year old college students are some of the worst about this hubris. They're not used to their newfound independence, their star status as big man on campus, or the benefits their position carries. If you throw a players' coach into that mix, you get a recipe for disaster, and we see that all the time in college sports. We've even seen it in Tuscaloosa.
None of us knows exactly what issues the UF basketball team has had his season. We don't know how many inches/feet/yards/miles of rope Donovan gave these players. What we do know is that the rope has apparently run out. Is Donovan embarrassing his players? Yes. Is he abusing them? No. Is he using fear as a motivator? Only if the fear is the fear of losing playing time next season. There are a lot of teams out there that could do with a few more players being a little less certain about the PT that is "owed" them.
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1. Nobody has said that he has to be a "friend".
2. Nobody has said anything about a "player's coach".
There are three types of Coaching:
1. Command Style (The Dictator). Coach makes all of the decisions.
2. Submissive Style (The Babysitter). Coach makes as few decisions as possible.
3. The Cooperative Style (The Teacher). Coach shares decisions with their athletes.
Embarrassment goes hand in hand with fear. If not the "fear" of embarrassment.
Do you think that all "successful" coaches do things like Donovan? Most of your successful coaches use the Cooperative Style.
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Ahh... I knew there was a catch! We will have agree to disagree on "philosophy".
Ditto,LCN, a sense of urgency is something most of our men's teams should have embraced a long time ago. This may sound like an over demanding fan. But let's face it, Bama athletics are,[I wouldn't even term them as average] are below average.Heard about this on the radio today and couldn't help but to wonder why more coaches haven't done the same . Sometimes an extra chip on the shoulder is all the extra motivation players need . I have to quietly applaud CBD and his tactics .
I think you've hit on something Bama Steve. Is his reaction coinsidental? I think not.
This is not the NS board, and it's not going to become that. We will disagree agreeably - or else...
The Gators are in the final 4, and will probably win the Tourney.
I guess Coach Donovon doesn't know how to motivate and has lost this team.
For the record, my posts that were deleted above did not contain profanity. They did, however, contain sarcasm and facetious statements, and I apologize to Ldlane for those.
As noted, Florida's in the NIT Final Four, and, win it all or lose their next game, there has been a change in the tenor of the team has improved. Whether you like his tactics or not, Donovan has gotten his team to start playing decent ball again. I maintain that he has better information about his team than any of us does, and he knows exactly which buttons he pushed in August, October, November, December, January, and February and the results of pushing those buttons, positive or negative.
One of the points of contention from earlier discussions was that Donovan was using fear as a motivator. I do not agree that Donovan's actions equate to using fear; however, let us assume that Donovan's use of embarrassment is a form of motivation by fear. What, exactly, is the fault in using fear as one of many motivational tools? Fear is a natural motivator, and response to fear (fight or flight) is an innate one that is as accepted as any other biological theory. Many people choose not to drink and drive for fear that they will injure or kill another person or that they will be caught and will, therefore, ruin their own lives. Some individuals are afraid NOT to study for tests in high school or college for fear that they will not be able to gain acceptance to their college, university, or graduate school of choice. The fear of potential health problems leads some individuals to never smoke cigarettes, to curtail eating fried foods, or to alter their lifestyles in other ways.
I believe that fear should be used (albeit as a latter resort) and is a necessary part of being successful. I would, at this time, reference my beliefs about our football coach's discipline system as I remember it working at LSU. It is my belief that we will see fewer and fewer discipline issues from our football team's players NOT because Saban is going to start making them run more, clean more bedpans, do more pushups, or the like; I believe we will see fewer discipline issues because aban will simply say, "You follow the rules, or you do not play." This strategy works when there is enough talent on the team so that the 2nd team is truly capable of playing at an elite level. The team Shula left to Saban was not talented enough to afford Saban his 'druthers with regard to discipline, and it showed last season. However, with the most recent recruiting class, the talent level is recovering, and I believe that fear of losing playing time (and thus losing the opportunity to "shine" for pro scouts) will affect a different attitude in the football program.
What does that have to do with basketball? A notable shortcoming of the Alabama basketball team was its apparent distaste for playing hard-nosed defense. In my estimation, it would have done some good for some of the "special" players to get the message -- loud and clear -- that you either play good defense every game or you sit. Is that using fear to motivate? Yes. Is it abusive? No.
Now, as I have already stated, I do not believe that Donovan's actions were equivalent to using fear, since he was really using embarrassment to motivate. He was sending a message to his players that they needed to earn the privilege to work out in the multi-million-dollar facility and to wear the school colors. Those privileges are given to teams that want to work hard, to do things the right way, to do the things that lead to championships. Apparently, Donovan did not think the team had displayed those traits; apparently, his team got the message, whether they win the NIT or not.
Again, none of us knows what buttons got pushed during the season or how much rope Donovan gave the team during those games and practices. It is apparent, though, that Donovan is a good coach. One might "luck into" one national championship, but it is highly improbably that anyone would stumble into back-to-back national championships, and all of this discounts the success Donovan had at Marshall and at Florida prior to the NC seasons. The man can coach, and he consistently draws high-level (national) talent to his program. I cannot accept that this decision is a sign of "off the rails" behavior on his part.
What do you do the first time your child wanders too close to the street? Do you talk to him or her about the danger? What do you do after you've had a couple of "talks" with the child, but the child doesn't appear to get the message? Do you send him or her to Time Out? When the child continues to test the boundaries of your yard after a couple of Times Out, what do you do then? Is this the moment for a swat to the seat? Is there reasonable cause for an uninvolved motorist who happens to see the "swat to the seat" and conclude that you're a child abuser? Is it reasonable to label you a "bad parent" because you resorted -- after several other methods had failed -- to a method that is currently hotly debated?
Now, before the fact, I know that there are those spoiling to invoke the "but college basketball players aren't children" routine. To those individuals, I say, "Billy Donovan isn't spanking his players, and he's not even publicly embarrassing them on their first transgression." I will also say that, for the most part, freshmen in college (especially males) have the bodies of adults and the minds of adolescents. The temporal horizon of the normal freshman/sophomore is extremely short; "Now" is the important time, and "Later" is something that has little value. The young person has many answers, and they're all the right answers -- who needs to listen to older people, anyway? Sometimes, after you've repeatedly treated these individuals as adults and have been repeatedly disappointed by their lack of attention to your advice and direction, you have to give them a wake-up call. That's all Donovan's actions were.
Ldlane cited 3 styles of coaching in posts that were removed. These were (1) Command (Dictator), (2) Submissive (Babysitter), and (3) Cooperative (Teacher). I say again that there is not one successful coach who utilizes only one of these styles throughout a career, a season, or even one single game. Perhaps there is a dominant style, but every successful coach demonstrates a combination of these styles, depending on the team (players) in question and the situation at hand. One example I used was Mike Kryzezewski at Duke. He often is portrayed as the Teacher but will revoke decision-making privileges from his team and will dictate plays from the bench if the players demonstrate an inability to make good decisions.
An example of a Teacher is Bob Knight. While this statement is sure to be controversial because of most individuals' desire to see Knight as a Dictator, one only has to look to his style of coaching to see the Teacher. In fact, John Wooden has called Knight, "the greatest teacher of the game we've had." Knight utilizes both an offensive and defensive philosophy that allow players to make decisions. The Motion Offense requires players to recognize when a good shot is available and to decide when it is appropriate to take that shot. Knight's teams ran few scripted "plays." On defense, Knight advocated Man-to-Man, which required players to make decisions regarding how to pay their respective assignments, when/if to switch assignments, etc. Of course, Knight has had some memorable meltdowns and has demonstrated a definite ability to be a Dictator at times. Phil Jackson is a Teacher and a Babysitter. Pat Riley has been all 3 at different times in his career. Paul Bryant was all 3, depending on who the players were and what the situations were. John Wooden babysat some players and taught others, depending on their respective talent levels.
Thus, to say that a Dictatorial style is unsuccessful or inappropriate is as mypoic as saying that a Teaching style won't work or that a Babysitting style isn't the best course; the success is not in the style but in the individual who makes the determination of when a particular style should or should not be employed. The performance evaluation, of course, is determined in part by the win-loss record at the end of the season. Donovan changed tactics/styles, and it appears to have worked; however, it is, in my estimation, a mistake to discount his decision-making before the fact, given his track record as a head basketball coach.
As noted, Florida's in the NIT Final Four, and, win it all or lose their next game, there has been a change in the tenor of the team has improved. Whether you like his tactics or not, Donovan has gotten his team to start playing decent ball again. I maintain that he has better information about his team than any of us does, and he knows exactly which buttons he pushed in August, October, November, December, January, and February and the results of pushing those buttons, positive or negative.
One of the points of contention from earlier discussions was that Donovan was using fear as a motivator. I do not agree that Donovan's actions equate to using fear; however, let us assume that Donovan's use of embarrassment is a form of motivation by fear. What, exactly, is the fault in using fear as one of many motivational tools? Fear is a natural motivator, and response to fear (fight or flight) is an innate one that is as accepted as any other biological theory. Many people choose not to drink and drive for fear that they will injure or kill another person or that they will be caught and will, therefore, ruin their own lives. Some individuals are afraid NOT to study for tests in high school or college for fear that they will not be able to gain acceptance to their college, university, or graduate school of choice. The fear of potential health problems leads some individuals to never smoke cigarettes, to curtail eating fried foods, or to alter their lifestyles in other ways.
I believe that fear should be used (albeit as a latter resort) and is a necessary part of being successful. I would, at this time, reference my beliefs about our football coach's discipline system as I remember it working at LSU. It is my belief that we will see fewer and fewer discipline issues from our football team's players NOT because Saban is going to start making them run more, clean more bedpans, do more pushups, or the like; I believe we will see fewer discipline issues because aban will simply say, "You follow the rules, or you do not play." This strategy works when there is enough talent on the team so that the 2nd team is truly capable of playing at an elite level. The team Shula left to Saban was not talented enough to afford Saban his 'druthers with regard to discipline, and it showed last season. However, with the most recent recruiting class, the talent level is recovering, and I believe that fear of losing playing time (and thus losing the opportunity to "shine" for pro scouts) will affect a different attitude in the football program.
What does that have to do with basketball? A notable shortcoming of the Alabama basketball team was its apparent distaste for playing hard-nosed defense. In my estimation, it would have done some good for some of the "special" players to get the message -- loud and clear -- that you either play good defense every game or you sit. Is that using fear to motivate? Yes. Is it abusive? No.
Now, as I have already stated, I do not believe that Donovan's actions were equivalent to using fear, since he was really using embarrassment to motivate. He was sending a message to his players that they needed to earn the privilege to work out in the multi-million-dollar facility and to wear the school colors. Those privileges are given to teams that want to work hard, to do things the right way, to do the things that lead to championships. Apparently, Donovan did not think the team had displayed those traits; apparently, his team got the message, whether they win the NIT or not.
Again, none of us knows what buttons got pushed during the season or how much rope Donovan gave the team during those games and practices. It is apparent, though, that Donovan is a good coach. One might "luck into" one national championship, but it is highly improbably that anyone would stumble into back-to-back national championships, and all of this discounts the success Donovan had at Marshall and at Florida prior to the NC seasons. The man can coach, and he consistently draws high-level (national) talent to his program. I cannot accept that this decision is a sign of "off the rails" behavior on his part.
What do you do the first time your child wanders too close to the street? Do you talk to him or her about the danger? What do you do after you've had a couple of "talks" with the child, but the child doesn't appear to get the message? Do you send him or her to Time Out? When the child continues to test the boundaries of your yard after a couple of Times Out, what do you do then? Is this the moment for a swat to the seat? Is there reasonable cause for an uninvolved motorist who happens to see the "swat to the seat" and conclude that you're a child abuser? Is it reasonable to label you a "bad parent" because you resorted -- after several other methods had failed -- to a method that is currently hotly debated?
Now, before the fact, I know that there are those spoiling to invoke the "but college basketball players aren't children" routine. To those individuals, I say, "Billy Donovan isn't spanking his players, and he's not even publicly embarrassing them on their first transgression." I will also say that, for the most part, freshmen in college (especially males) have the bodies of adults and the minds of adolescents. The temporal horizon of the normal freshman/sophomore is extremely short; "Now" is the important time, and "Later" is something that has little value. The young person has many answers, and they're all the right answers -- who needs to listen to older people, anyway? Sometimes, after you've repeatedly treated these individuals as adults and have been repeatedly disappointed by their lack of attention to your advice and direction, you have to give them a wake-up call. That's all Donovan's actions were.
Ldlane cited 3 styles of coaching in posts that were removed. These were (1) Command (Dictator), (2) Submissive (Babysitter), and (3) Cooperative (Teacher). I say again that there is not one successful coach who utilizes only one of these styles throughout a career, a season, or even one single game. Perhaps there is a dominant style, but every successful coach demonstrates a combination of these styles, depending on the team (players) in question and the situation at hand. One example I used was Mike Kryzezewski at Duke. He often is portrayed as the Teacher but will revoke decision-making privileges from his team and will dictate plays from the bench if the players demonstrate an inability to make good decisions.
An example of a Teacher is Bob Knight. While this statement is sure to be controversial because of most individuals' desire to see Knight as a Dictator, one only has to look to his style of coaching to see the Teacher. In fact, John Wooden has called Knight, "the greatest teacher of the game we've had." Knight utilizes both an offensive and defensive philosophy that allow players to make decisions. The Motion Offense requires players to recognize when a good shot is available and to decide when it is appropriate to take that shot. Knight's teams ran few scripted "plays." On defense, Knight advocated Man-to-Man, which required players to make decisions regarding how to pay their respective assignments, when/if to switch assignments, etc. Of course, Knight has had some memorable meltdowns and has demonstrated a definite ability to be a Dictator at times. Phil Jackson is a Teacher and a Babysitter. Pat Riley has been all 3 at different times in his career. Paul Bryant was all 3, depending on who the players were and what the situations were. John Wooden babysat some players and taught others, depending on their respective talent levels.
Thus, to say that a Dictatorial style is unsuccessful or inappropriate is as mypoic as saying that a Teaching style won't work or that a Babysitting style isn't the best course; the success is not in the style but in the individual who makes the determination of when a particular style should or should not be employed. The performance evaluation, of course, is determined in part by the win-loss record at the end of the season. Donovan changed tactics/styles, and it appears to have worked; however, it is, in my estimation, a mistake to discount his decision-making before the fact, given his track record as a head basketball coach.
As a FSU Grad and Bama fan, I WILL NEVER LIKE THE GATORS!
He may be successful, but I don't have to like his tactics.
Salty, thanks for re-stating the points that I agreed with you upon! But there a couple of things I should point out!
1. Phil Jackson is not a "Baby-sitter".
2. All offenses require players to recognize open shots and take initiative.
He may be successful, but I don't have to like his tactics.
Salty, thanks for re-stating the points that I agreed with you upon! But there a couple of things I should point out!
1. Phil Jackson is not a "Baby-sitter".
2. All offenses require players to recognize open shots and take initiative.
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We agree to disagree on on Phil! (Sorry, I did it again!)
Point 2: All offenses do require that; some offenses are simply less flexible with respect to player decision-making. For example, an offense built on structured plays requires a set number of reads and decisions based on the designed play, while a more flexible offense allows for more player decisions within the looser constraints of the offense.
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