Evolution vs. Creationism

[Bamalaw92]

good points. also, intelligent design is no more necessarily aligned with a belief in god than evolution isn't. look at the raelian movement--by the logic of intelligent design it's just as probable that aliens were the designer than god. that's not to say it's bad logic, just that it's nonscientific.

And who created the aliens?

 

[Bamalaw92]

In the end, that is the ultimate question - Where did it all begin? If God created everything, where did God come from? I mean, really - where did He come from?

God is and always has been....he is infinite....the Alpha and the Omega. That is why he states that the mind of mind cannot comprehend the totality of God.

 

[Ramah Jamah]

I have a relationship with God but believe that the story of creation is a myth...

It seems that this is a harmless statement, I wonder how you harmonize this statement with 2 Timothy 3:16 (all scripture is given by inspiration of God) & Titus 1:2 (God, who cannot lie). If all scripture comes from God & God does not tell a lie, we have one of 2 choices. Either (1) the book of Genesis is not from God or (2) if it is from God, He lies. In either case, one passage is going to be contradicted. "Faith" says that we believe everything (not only certain parts) that God says in His word.

I do believe that the Bible is inspired by God. So if we are to believe everything in the Bible do you believe that slavery is OK (Lev. 25:44)? The right of people to sell their daughters in to slavery (Exodus 21:7)? That eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10)? Just look at the different God in the Old and New Testament. If you try and take the Bible literally you are missing the point. The Bible is a source of inspiration and not a science or history book.

 

[Ramah Jamah]

First I am not the one here saying who is or isnt more or less of anything. See all of the secularist for a rebuf of your faith. Your thoughts in the first paragraph fall in line with your statement about creation being a myth. So it is consistant at least. However if you keep going back far enough in this evolution biz you get to some place in the past where everything started. Where did that come from? What holds atoms togather? What holds what holds them togather?

1. I believe that God started everything.
2. I have no idea what holds atoms together.

 

[bamabake]

I do believe that the Bible is inspired by God. So if we are to believe everything in the Bible do you believe that slavery is OK (Lev. 25:44)? The right of people to sell their daughters in to slavery (Exodus 21:7)? That eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10)? Just look at the different God in the Old and New Testament. If you try and take the Bible literally you are missing the point. The Bible is a source of inspiration and not a science or history book.

Well, no offence but you just do not understand what is behind the issues you referenced. In the old testament slavery was common, the sustoms what they were. The shellfish thing is complicated but has nothing to do with todays aplication. The God of the Old and New Testaments is the exact same God. The books are in perfect harmony. It is in fact a historical book indeed.

 

[blackumbrella]

God is and always has been....he is infinite....the Alpha and the Omega. That is why he states that the mind of mind cannot comprehend the totality of God.

i like pantheism alot. in fact, it makes scientific inquiry very noble--seeking to know god.

 

[blackumbrella]

What a rediculous juxtaposition. Even if there were or are aliens, following this , er , line of reas, thinking, where did the aliens come from?

if it's ridiculous then your religion's ridiculous, bc it's the same logic.

And who created the aliens?

sounds like what y'all are getting at is the fisrt cause argument. what was the something, the anything, that put everything in motion? who knows. i certainly don't. so as far as i'm concerned everyone's free to call the first cause whatever they like and tell all kinds of stories about it doing this or smiting that. but since we don't know a lick about it, how can anyone say their story is better than anyone else's? moreover, while we're throwing big speculations around, who's to say there even was a first cause? maybe we're just unable to think in a nonlinear fashion, and can;t comprehend that the universe has always been. always. expanding, contracting, expanding, contracting. always.

 

[blackumbrella]

Well, no offence but you just do not understand what is behind the issues you referenced. In the old testament slavery was common, the sustoms what they were. The shellfish thing is complicated but has nothing to do with todays aplication. The God of the Old and New Testaments is the exact same God. The books are in perfect harmony. It is in fact a historical book indeed.

this is an interesting comment. slavery was common in the 18th cent too. do you think that god grades on a curve? would i go to hell for leading the same life that got 1700s dudes past the pearlies?

 

[BAMARICH]

Ramah Jamah...

If you try and take the Bible literally you are missing the point. QUOTE]
The things you bring up have to be examine "in context." Slavery, as cited in the Bible, is not necessarily a terrible thing. For many years of civilization, it was an arrangment that provided for the needs of those who would not have been able to survive without that system. Yes, God allowed it in OT times & Ephesians 6:5f discusses the responsibilities on both sides (note: neither God nor I am in favor of the detestable slave practices that have existed in many cultures over the years). Also, the eating customs provided under the law of Moses were primarily designed to promote health (i.e. pork was not allowed). That law, however, is not in force today (Ephesians 2:14f, Colossians 2:14). Therefore, we are not obligate to obey it. To fail to take the Bible literally is to miss the point in terms of historical accounts (Genesis qualifies as history literature). Thus, you have not answered my original question (how can you harmonize your statement with 2 Timothy 3:16 and Titus 1:2).

 

[BAMARICH]

Ramah Jamah...

I forgot about your last point. The God of the OT and the NT is the same (if you believe the words of Malachi 3:6- For I am the Lord, I do not change...). Follow closely what I'm trying to say. God does not change. The only thing that changes is how he deals with mankind. The nature of God is changeless although over time, the way he communicated/dealt with man changed. But, that is another thread for another day.

 

[blackumbrella]

If you try and take the Bible literally you are missing the point. QUOTE]
The things you bring up have to be examine "in context." Slavery, as cited in the Bible, is not necessarily a terrible thing. For many years of civilization, it was an arrangment that provided for the needs of those who would not have been able to survive without that system. Yes, God allowed it in OT times & Ephesians 6:5f discusses the responsibilities on both sides (note: neither God nor I am in favor of the detestable slave practices that have existed in many cultures over the years). Also, the eating customs provided under the law of Moses were primarily designed to promote health (i.e. pork was not allowed). That law, however, is not in force today (Ephesians 2:14f, Colossians 2:14). Therefore, we are not obligate to obey it. To fail to take the Bible literally is to miss the point in terms of historical accounts (Genesis qualifies as history literature). Thus, you have not answered my original question (how can you harmonize your statement with 2 Timothy 3:16 and Titus 1:2).

b-rich, but how do we know these rules are no longer to be followed? or for that matter, what's to keep us from saying that other rules, the commandments maybe, are no longer to be followed?

 

[Tide and True]

Furthermore, your comments about people that have a relationship with God as people essentially embracing myths to live by, who need those myths for comfort is a total insult at worst and ignorance at best. Your stuffy aloofness is past insulting and nearing the point of boring.

Welcome back, Bake. I had some hope that you would return, as promised, with empirical evidence for creationism. But that’s okay. I think the folks scoring at home know how to mark their cards.

As for your post, the scholar to which I was referring was Joseph Campbell, one of the world’s foremost comparative mythologists. If you’d been familiar with his work, perhaps you’d have read my post differently. I too live by myths, Bake. I too use narrative to give my life meaning. I’ve always been drawn, for instance, to stories about sacrifice. You’ve got this hero, right? Someone quite special. And, at great cost to himself, he secures something very valuable for the rest of us. Why? Because, in his heart, he loves every man as he loves himself and he will sacrifice his own well being for the greater good of humanity. Does this remind of you of anyone? Jesus, of course. But for me it’s not just Jesus. It’s Ghandi. It’s the Iron Giant. It’s the husband who works 60 hour weeks to feed his family. For some reason, Bake, you and others want to fight about the literalness of your metaphors. I can’t see why. Especially not when we could be focusing on their message.

 

[Ramah Jamah]

Well, no offence but you just do not understand what is behind the issues you referenced. In the old testament slavery was common, the sustoms what they were. The shellfish thing is complicated but has nothing to do with todays aplication. The God of the Old and New Testaments is the exact same God. The books are in perfect harmony. It is in fact a historical book indeed.

I am not trying to question others faith (Lord knows I get enough of that myself) but I find it incredible that someone would believe that the Bible is consistent.

Revelation 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ...
Revelation 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.

Acts 9:7 Those present at Saul's conversion were standing
Acts 26:14 Those present at Saul's conversion were on the ground.

John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9 Everyone will be saved.
John 12:40, Acts 2:21, 2:39, Romans 9:27, 10:13 Only some will be saved.

I could go on and on with this but you get the point. The Bible, and Christianity for that matter, is a compicated book. It is not consistent and at times it causes you to scratch your head but the central message is there.

 

[bamabake]

b-rich, but how do we know these rules are no longer to be followed? or for that matter, what's to keep us from saying that other rules, the commandments maybe, are no longer to be followed?

This will not make sense to you, however the New Testament is just that.

 

[bamabake]

I am not trying to question others faith (Lord knows I get enough of that myself) but I find it incredible that someone would believe that the Bible is consistent.

Revelation 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ...
Revelation 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.

Acts 9:7 Those present at Saul's conversion were standing
Acts 26:14 Those present at Saul's conversion were on the ground.

John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9 Everyone will be saved.
John 12:40, Acts 2:21, 2:39, Romans 9:27, 10:13 Only some will be saved.

I could go on and on with this but you get the point. The Bible, and Christianity for that matter, is a compicated book. It is not consistent and at times it causes you to scratch your head but the central message is there.

Well this is just ignorance and out of context verses. You totally took 2 Peter 3:9 out of context, as it refers to Gods longsuffering and desire that all be saved. Your other references dont refer to waht you are saying and are not even related in any way. Get your facts right. Furthermore you cannot find one single contradiction in the bible. THis is all old hat and has been debunked so many times the works would fill a school library ( as they should).

 

[It's On A Slab]

I am not trying to question others faith (Lord knows I get enough of that myself) but I find it incredible that someone would believe that the Bible is consistent.

Revelation 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ...
Revelation 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.

Acts 9:7 Those present at Saul's conversion were standing
Acts 26:14 Those present at Saul's conversion were on the ground.

John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9 Everyone will be saved.
John 12:40, Acts 2:21, 2:39, Romans 9:27, 10:13 Only some will be saved.

I could go on and on with this but you get the point. The Bible, and Christianity for that matter, is a compicated book. It is not consistent and at times it causes you to scratch your head but the central message is there.

More fun with contradictions.

 

[Ramah Jamah]

Well this is just ignorance and out of context verses. You totally took 2 Peter 3:9 out of context, as it refers to Gods longsuffering and desire that all be saved. Your other references dont refer to waht you are saying and are not even related in any way. Get your facts right. Furthermore you cannot find one single contradiction in the bible. THis is all old hat and has been debunked so many times the works would fill a school library ( as they should).

Sorry, but you need to be a bit more specific. I give you examples of contradiciton but you do not tell me how I am wrong.

What day did the temple burn?

2 Kg.25:8-9
"And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month ... burned the house of the Lord."

Jer.52:12-13
"Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month ... burned the house of the Lord."

Should we be circumcised?

Gen.17:10
"This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and they seed after thee: Every man and child among you shall be circumcised."

Gal.5:2
"Behold, I Paul, say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Should we fear God?

Lev.25:17
Thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God.

2 Tim.1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Was Christ's tomb opened when Mary Magdalene et al arrived?

Lk.24:2
"And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre."

Mt.28:2
"The angel of the Lord descended from heaven, annnot find one single contradiction in the bible. THis is all old hat and has been debunked so many times the works would fill a school library ( as they should).[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you need to be a bit more specific. I give you examples of contradiciton but you do not tell me how I am wrong.

What day did the temple burn?

2 Kg.25:8-9
"And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month ... burned the house of the Lord."

Jer.52:12-13
"Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month ... burned the house of the Lord."

Should we be circumcised?

Gen.17:10
"This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and they seed after thee: Every man and child among you shall be circumcised."

Gal.5:2
"Behold, I Paul, say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Should we fear God?

Lev.25:17
Thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God.

2 Tim.1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Was Christ's tomb opened when Mary Magdalene et al arrived?

Lk.24:2
"And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre."

Mt.28:2
"The angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it."

Want me to go on? I can. The Bible is no less inspirational because of inconsistencies.

 

[blackumbrella]

This will not make sense to you, however the New Testament is just that.

help me to understand. explain it to me.

 

[Bamalaw92]

i like pantheism alot. in fact, it makes scientific inquiry very noble--seeking to know god.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Bamalaw92]

sounds like what y'all are getting at is the fisrt cause argument. what was the something, the anything, that put everything in motion? who knows. i certainly don't. so as far as i'm concerned everyone's free to call the first cause whatever they like and tell all kinds of stories about it doing this or smiting that. but since we don't know a lick about it, how can anyone say their story is better than anyone else's? moreover, while we're throwing big speculations around, who's to say there even was a first cause? maybe we're just unable to think in a nonlinear fashion, and can;t comprehend that the universe has always been. always. expanding, contracting, expanding, contracting. always.

We are not "getting at" anything. As you said, we don't know a lick about it, and never will until we meet our maker (if that is one's belief). Maybe we can't comprehend the true nature of God - the intelligence and mover of the universe. That is why I choose to believe God is and always has been....he is infinite....the Alpha and the Omega and why he states that the mind of mind cannot comprehend the totality of God. When looking at the complexity of the universe, a guiding hand makes a lot more sense than simple random acts accidentally creating order out of chaos. But that is my opinion. It is every bit as valid as your "scientific" approach.