Fundamental change may be needed

[bamaslammer]

So far I'd say Nick Saban has managed the new NLI open player movement thing pretty well. He seems to be able to fill holes as they come open but Alabama seems to be playing primarily players who have been in the program 2 years or less vs the veteran teams of the past. I think we were better than Michigan on paper but we lost for several reasons that I don't want to discuss in this tread, but the one issue I do want to discuss is how our defenders are constantly in big games being fooled by eye candy. I don't think our players are stupid, in fact I'd say they are above average, but Saban's defense is considered one of the most complex NFL defensive systems in college. Pretty much until they do something to stop player free movement most of our starters from now on will barely know where the bathroom is in the football building. I know going with a more simplistic system is the last thing he wants to do but does he have a choice? The human brain can't absorb 3 years of knowledge in one spring practice. it just won't take.

 

[DrollTide]

It is a profound question, because it is complex, on both sides of the ball. BUT how many players pick Alabama BECAUSE it is complex and prepares you for the NFL? This is a wheels-within-wheels thing that is hard to evaluate. What if the kind of player that Saban selects for is the kind of player that is prepared to be an understudy for 2 years before seeing much field time?

It is easy to see the failures of, say, Gus, whose QBs never progress beyond their high-school skillset. Presumably you are not suggesting going that low. I do feel that Milroe's lack of run-option experience (to really leverage his legs) while he is being developed as a pocket passer has been a liability at times. This year, none of our QB room was really a good fit from the start of the season for what Alabama likes to do - perhaps there was an argument for simplification this year.

On the defensive side, we all loved Pruitt's defenses, who somehow managed to play a sophisticated scheme but fast and aggressively. It may be time to return to this style of defense. Steele's comment at the playoff media day, that Saban is the real DC, is interesting.

In terms of the science of player psychology and ability to consume learning, I don't think there is a more deeply informed coach than Saban.

 

[davefrat]

It is a profound question, because it is complex, on both sides of the ball. BUT how many players pick Alabama BECAUSE it is complex and prepares you for the NFL? This is a wheels-within-wheels thing that is hard to evaluate. What if the kind of player that Saban selects for is the kind of player that is prepared to be an understudy for 2 years before seeing much field time?

It is easy to see the failures of, say, Gus, whose QBs never progress beyond their high-school skillset. Presumably you are not suggesting going that low. I do feel that Milroe's lack of run-option experience (to really leverage his legs) while he is being developed as a pocket passer has been a liability at times. This year, none of our QB room was really a good fit from the start of the season for what Alabama likes to do - perhaps there was an argument for simplification this year.

On the defensive side, we all loved Pruitt's defenses, who somehow managed to play a sophisticated scheme but fast and aggressively. It may be time to return to this style of defense. Steele's comment at the playoff media day, that Saban is the real DC, is interesting.

In terms of the science of player psychology and ability to consume learning, I don't think there is a more deeply informed coach than Saban.

Traditionally, I think the kind of players that play at places like Bama choose the schools that will give them the best chance of making it to the NFL. I guess that's still the situation, although NIL has really upended everything.

 

[DrJJoyner]

I'm as disappointed as the next Bama fan about going three straight years without a national championship. But some perspective is in order.

2021: Beat Georgia in SEC Championship before losing to them, narrowly, in the National Championship Game that we led with 7 minutes left in the game. We lost our top two wide receivers in the interim and were playing cornerbacks that we grabbed from the stands because so many were injured.

2022: Lost two road games by a total of four points.

2023: Beat Georgia in the SEC Championship before narrowly losing to a Michigan team that went 15-0, blowing out their opponent in the National Championship Game.

It's not like we're getting our doors blown off and need a radical overhaul.

 

[bamaslammer]

Well you bring up offense, we basically dumb down the offense to fit the experience of the QB primarily, possibly the OL as well. We certainly ran a more complex offense mid season compared to the one we ran against Texas. But I'm talking defensively. I don't see us adjusting anything defensively no matter how inexperience the defensive players are. Defensively in 24 the back half of the defense looks like they will be playing more than 50% players with little experience in our system. Are we going to look good against bad teams and then look lost when someone throws confusing formations at us?

 

[gtgilbert]

Well you bring up offense, we basically dumb down the offense to fit the experience of the QB primarily, possibly the OL as well. We certainly ran a more complex offense mid season compared to the one we ran against Texas. But I'm talking defensively. I don't see us adjusting anything defensively no matter how inexperience the defensive players are. Defensively in 24 the back half of the defense looks like they will be playing more than 50% players with little experience in our system. Are we going to look good against bad teams and then look lost when someone throws confusing formations at us?

Actually, against Texas we were still trying to run our traditional pro-style offense. that wasn't working, so we stripped a lot out after USF, and then at the bye-week, we significantly changed it to make it WAY more simple, like orders of magnitude more simple.

 

[countrytider]

So far I'd say Nick Saban has managed the new NLI open player movement thing pretty well. He seems to be able to fill holes as they come open but Alabama seems to be playing primarily players who have been in the program 2 years or less vs the veteran teams of the past. I think we were better than Michigan on paper but we lost for several reasons that I don't want to discuss in this tread, but the one issue I do want to discuss is how our defenders are constantly in big games being fooled by eye candy. I don't think our players are stupid, in fact I'd say they are above average, but Saban's defense is considered one of the most complex NFL defensive systems in college. Pretty much until they do something to stop player free movement most of our starters from now on will barely know where the bathroom is in the football building. I know going with a more simplistic system is the last thing he wants to do but does he have a choice? The human brain can't absorb 3 years of knowledge in one spring practice. it just won't take.

I AGREE 💯. I believe that’s why under Steele we were so much improved. The last few minutes of the Michigan game not withstanding..

 

[denver]

Its not rocket science - on offense, a functional and competent offensive line that allows a run/pass mix to keep defenses off guard....we used to have this as the default...but lately its been an adventure. On defense...a front 4 who can stop the run and pressure the quarterback without having to send extra defenders every play...this is how Michigan was able to dictate on defense. We used to have this as a default but the DL has been missing the past few seasons. All this is what Bama ball used to be...somehow we got away from it by chasing the shiny new offense etc....its not sexy but its effective and wins championships.

 

[Grogan11]

The defense is fine. Especially in the second half of games. After Texas, the most pints we let up was 28 to LSU and they had one of the best offenses in recent memory. Even with the last drive from Michigan we still held them to 20 in regulation. In this day and age of college football that should be enough to win every time. The problem is on offense not defense in my opinion.

 

[hfhmilkman]

As an outsider the biggest difference between Alabama of the past and Alabama of 2023 is the difference in the skill positions on offense. When Alabama last played Michigan, the first four receivers were 1st round draft picks, the RB was a 1st round pick, and the backup ended up being a 3rd round pick(And starter for the Redskins). The QB was a 1st round pick and got a shot to start for NE for a few seasons. You put 2019 Alabama skill players on 2023 Alabama, and Alabama clobbers Michigan.

Michigan has the defense to beat the air raid offense of UW, or coaches that refuse to run like Day or Sarkisian. But Saban knows what to do when he has an elite RB and a physical Oline. I understand the criticisms of the offensive line. But it was a physical line that knew how to run block. Saban would have forced more run support in the box and then take the lid over the top with elite receivers who are a threat for a house call. Not even Michigan's great Dline can stand up to that.

Michigan won more because of what Alabama was not, not because Michigan reached the level of Alabama or Georgia.

 

[Bill from NYC]

. You put 2019 Alabama skill players on 2023 Alabama, and Alabama clobbers Michigan.

Of course.....if the QB can get them the football.

 

[gtgilbert]

The defense is fine. Especially in the second half of games. After Texas, the most pints we let up was 28 to LSU and they had one of the best offenses in recent memory. Even with the last drive from Michigan we still held them to 20 in regulation. In this day and age of college football that should be enough to win every time. The problem is on offense not defense in my opinion.

I agree with your thoughts on how the D played overall and that they were a championship unit in 23 for sure, but I do think there is some degree of 'change/simplification' worth considering.

i.e. - we still sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, play a 3 man front (30). When we do, it almost never works, and in fact there were times that was the key adjustment made - i.e. against UGA to start to shut them down. We were running 30, they were killing us, Saban switched to the 40, and we played much, much better. It's been that way for at least 4, maybe 5 seasons now. It's almost always a passing down when this happens, and in the 30 front we pull an OLB out into coverage, but keep both the ILBs in the box, and usually blitz one. So we take our best pass rusher out of the role where he does his best thing, and make an ILB rush which is not his best thing either (or he'd be an OLB). If we stay in 40, we let the pass rusher do his best thing, and we keep the ILB in coverage where he's got a better chance of running with the LB or TE than an OLB does. Let's be honest, our OLBs and ILBs are not really interchangeable. The ILBs are typically 6'2"- 6'3", and 225 to 235. The OLBs are minimum 6'4", and usually 250 to 255.

For all the references to the vaunted 3-4 Over/Under, we really don't run it any more. I didn't chart every play this season, but I have in the past and there were seasons that we literally ran that alignment and grouping a grand total of 5 times, and all were goal line or short yardage situations.

Our base is a really and truly a Nickel. We legit run nickel 70-75% + of the time, with almost all the rest being a dime variant. More often than not the nickel aligns as a 4-2. Sometimes that same personnel grouping runs it like a 3-3, but per above, we don't execute that as well because the 3rd LB in when we do that, is really a pass rush guy we're asking to run in coverage. Who would you rather have rush, Anderson, Turner and Braswell type guys, or Christian Harris, Henry To'o To'o and D Lawson type guys?

So at least in theory, we could drop all the 30 front nickel stuff out of the playbook, not have to learn it, not have to practice it, etc and it likely wouldn't have a negative impact on our overall quality of defense at all. We could still have some blitz disguises where we play 40, but have an OLB drop and an ILB rush and all that fun stuff, but that's different than aligning in a 30, where we've pulled the OLB way out into the flats in coverage...

 

[Grogan11]

I agree with your thoughts on how the D played overall and that they were a championship unit in 23 for sure, but I do think there is some degree of 'change/simplification' worth considering.

i.e. - we still sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, play a 3 man front (30). When we do, it almost never works, and in fact there were times that was the key adjustment made - i.e. against UGA to start to shut them down. We were running 30, they were killing us, Saban switched to the 40, and we played much, much better. It's been that way for at least 4, maybe 5 seasons now. It's almost always a passing down when this happens, and in the 30 front we pull an OLB out into coverage, but keep both the ILBs in the box, and usually blitz one. So we take our best pass rusher out of the role where he does his best thing, and make an ILB rush which is not his best thing either (or he'd be an OLB). If we stay in 40, we let the pass rusher do his best thing, and we keep the ILB in coverage where he's got a better chance of running with the LB or TE than an OLB does. Let's be honest, our OLBs and ILBs are not really interchangeable. The ILBs are typically 6'2"- 6'3", and 225 to 235. The OLBs are minimum 6'4", and usually 250 to 255.

For all the references to the vaunted 3-4 Over/Under, we really don't run it any more. I didn't chart every play this season, but I have in the past and there were seasons that we literally ran that alignment and grouping a grand total of 5 times, and all were goal line or short yardage situations.

Our base is a really and truly a Nickel. We legit run nickel 70-75% + of the time, with almost all the rest being a dime variant. More often than not the nickel aligns as a 4-2. Sometimes that same personnel grouping runs it like a 3-3, but per above, we don't execute that as well because the 3rd LB in when we do that, is really a pass rush guy we're asking to run in coverage. Who would you rather have rush, Anderson, Turner and Braswell type guys, or Christian Harris, Henry To'o To'o and D Lawson type guys?

So at least in theory, we could drop all the 30 front nickel stuff out of the playbook, not have to learn it, not have to practice it, etc and it likely wouldn't have a negative impact on our overall quality of defense at all. We could still have some blitz disguises where we play 40, but have an OLB drop and an ILB rush and all that fun stuff, but that's different than aligning in a 30, where we've pulled the OLB way out into the flats in coverage...

Great response, I hear what you’re saying and I agree with a lot of it but like CKS said the other day, CNS is the true DC no matter who may actually have that title. At this point in his career and after all the success he’s had I can’t see him making many changes to what he’s doing. I think some of the busted plays we saw this year are due to so many coaches having been around this program over the years so they know what our kids are being taught and they use that against them. I remember Freeze specifically saying he had some plays drawn up just for us that he knew would give us problems. There were definitely some busts this year, seemed like maybe more than ever, but as a whole the unit played at a championship level.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

We were 1 defensive stop away from the NCG. I don't think "fundamental" changes are necessary.

 

[Cruloc]

Fundamental change....nah, even with a super flawed team we were a couple of plays away from another title shot.

A new OL coach and better OL play.....yes
A QB that can read defenses and see the field and make play adjustments based on the D....yes
A nasty interior DL that is super disruptive.....yes
A top notch new DC since Steele is retiring.....yes

 

[BamaMoon]

I'm as disappointed as the next Bama fan about going three straight years without a national championship. But some perspective is in order.

2021: Beat Georgia in SEC Championship before losing to them, narrowly, in the National Championship Game that we led with 7 minutes left in the game. We lost our top two wide receivers in the interim and were playing cornerbacks that we grabbed from the stands because so many were injured.

2022: Lost two road games by a total of four points.

2023: Beat Georgia in the SEC Championship before narrowly losing to a Michigan team that went 15-0, blowing out their opponent in the National Championship Game.

It's not like we're getting our doors blown off and need a radical overhaul.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but maybe we need a thread that discusses "finishing" games.

 

[Tidelines]

Most teams know how to attack our defense. That certain plays will work against it. We seem to get out schemed at times by good coaches. It's our quality of athletes that allows us to win the majority of the time. That why recruiting has always been so important for Saban.

 

[davefrat]

We were 1 defensive stop away from the NCG. I don't think "fundamental" changes are necessary.

Completely agree.

Then again, we're dealing with a fanbase among which many consider anything less than an undefeated season ending in a national championship a catastrophe.

I have asked myself many times IF we had beaten MI and gone on to win the NC, how much of this hand-wringing would be taking place? Would people still be lamenting that Milroe can't see an open receiver with a telescope? That the O-line is as porous as a colander? That the defense can't stop anyone when it matters?

After all, we still could have won the whole deal with this team.

You'd think we ended up playing in the San Diego Country Credit Union bowl as opposed to being a couple plays away from the championship game from some reactions.

 

[2003TIDE]

The idea we need a “fundamental change” when we just made it to the playoffs is funny. Id eager over half the people here thought we’d have 3 losses after they watched the USF.

Football has fundamentally changed. We are doing a good job dealing with those changes IMO vs say a Clemson. Maybe we need a few minor tweaks, but we are far from needing to blow everything up..

 

[gtgilbert]

Completely agree.

Then again, we're dealing with a fanbase among which many consider anything less than an undefeated season ending in a national championship a catastrophe.

I have asked myself many times IF we had beaten MI and gone on to win the NC, how much of this hand-wringing would be taking place? Would people still be lamenting that Milroe can't see an open receiver with a telescope? That the O-line is as porous as a colander? That the defense can't stop anyone when it matters?

After all, we still could have won the whole deal with this team.

You'd think we ended up playing in the San Diego Country Credit Union bowl as opposed to being a couple plays away from the championship game from some reactions.

I guess the fan base has been Saban-ized. That means there's a standard the teams should play to, win or lose. Kinda like I felt like we lost after the All-barn game, because we didn't really play to our standard. Felt that way most of this season honestly. Conversely - there have been some games we lost, that while I hated that we lost, I felt like the team played to the standard so I didn't feel that bad about it...