Greg Sankey on SEC officiating
- Thread starter Tug Tide
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LOL
In that case I'd love to hear your explanation of the lack of offensive holding calls in the LSU-AU game, or the Arkansas-Alabama game...
Honestly, I think you have an idealistic view of officiating - officials choosing not to make obvious calls happens literally every week.
Then there are not enough "good officials", because I have seen too many of these calls. Great example - the TD call in the back of the end zone in the Alabama game. The official in the back of the end zone ruled Ruggs out of bounds on the play. Ruggs never got within 6 inched of the line. The official was standing 10 feet away from him and had a perfect angle. Not sure, rule it a TD because that is what you see. He did not do that. He thought the receiver might have stepped on the line so he made that call. He did not call what he saw. He called what might have happened because Ruggs was on his toes - even though Ruggs was still 6 inches from the back of the end zone.
That happens many times in every game. Officials are not calling what they see. They are guessing. They should be fired for guessing. I would be fired for guessing and I don't have millions of people watching me screw up.
He is 100% correct. There is no rule that the ground can't cause a fumble and he gave an example where it actually does. The truth in the statement is that a dead ball can't be fumbled and the ball is dead when a runner in possession touches anything but his hand or feet. The actual rule states a fumble is the accidental loss of possession of a LIVE ball by a runner.
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I have a pretty good idea of the thought process of an official having done it for 20 years. The players are much bigger, faster, stronger at the D1 level, but the rules and philosophies are the same. They are also held to a much higher standard and scrutinized much more heavily than I am so I know they are better.
An official never chooses to not make an obvious call incorrectly on purpose. You may see it differently than they do because you have a different angle, multiple views, or a possible bias that taints your judgement. That's fine and your right as a fan. That doesn't mean the official is going to be right every time. But I can guarantee he's not intentionally getting any call wrong. His postseason depends on trying to get every call right. And if he knowingly gets a call wrong his career is over. No supervisor would ever tolerate that.
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If he was 10 feet away he was probably too close. Proximity isn't the only factor in seeing a play correctly. Distance is often your friend because you have a wider view. You can also be too far away. Angles are critical too.
If they are guessing they are going to be wrong more often than right. If they do that too often they won't be working any longer. That is a fact. They are graded on every play and get enough downgrades you aren't working the postseason. Get more and you aren't hired back the next season. That doesn't happen often because these guys are actually really good. But it does happen. I would estimate 1 or 2 officials from each major conference each year aren't renewed.
I will never say calls are never wrong. But I can say with absolute certainty they are never wrong intentionally. They pass on fouls or call fouls that are judgement calls and their supervisor or grader disagrees with. But they felt it was the right judgement based on what they saw. By saying they are intentionally getting it wrong you are calling an official a cheater and a fraud. Do you honestly believe that?
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This is my biggest gripe and what needs to be addressed. If a WR steps out of bounds but official misses it that is frustrating but understandable, he just missed it. It's when an official calls something that did not actually happen that is inexcusable. Seeing a lot of this on pass interference this year. Missing a PI call is bad, making a PI call that never happened should result in discipline - calling any penalty that did not actually occur should be the most critiqued thing by the conference bosses (targeting being the exception as that rule requires it).
The problem with all of your assertions is that they only explain randomly distributed occurrences of errors, not systemic patterns of errors.
Please explain how, for example, Alabama has "randomly" for each of the last 8-10 years:
1) had its opponents penalized very close to if not in fact less often than any other team in the country, and
2) despite having very-good-to-elite talent on the defensive line, had the opposing offensive line penalized for holding calls very close to if not in fact less often than any other team in the country.
These two things point to a systemic pattern of errors that no logical, random distribution model could possibly explain.
Random errors are never that consistent.
Makes me wonder what kind of conflict of interest might be involved with their full time gigs. I wonder how many of them work for the yeller feller during the off-season... :cool2:
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You are correct. I guess I didn't make myself clear. I believe that we were talking about contact with the ground where the ball carrier is ruled down. I think that he was wanting to change to NFL rules... :cool2:
I do not care - he didn't see something but he called it anyway. That is wrong. You totally ignored the point of my post, and you know it.
If you do not believe that officials intentionally decide not to call an obvious foul then you are naive. That is intentionally getting it wrong. If that makes them cheaters and frauds, then yes. They are cheaters and frauds.
You're either an overzealous ideologist or just naive if you actually believe this.
Example - Arkansas was penalized ZERO times in our game last week. They've averaged 6 penalties per game all season, then suddenly play flawlessly when facing the best team they've played all season - a team with with superior (bigger, faster, stronger) players at each opposing position. Even without the film Occam's razor calls this one...
If the crew is so bad they cannot see the penalties plainly, then fire them. I don't care if they're blind or simply willfully not throwing the flags, fire them.
And for the record - this isn't about bias - we were ALL complaining loudly last week during the LSU/Auburn game - a game we really had no interest in outside of the fact they're both teams bama will be playing - and yet the refs were terrible. And no, I couldn't care less how they 'grade'.
You are correct on that. The downgrade for calling a foul the grader doesn't think is a foul is bigger than the downgrade for passing on something the grader thinks is a foul. That reinforces the notion of making sure you see something and not flagging it if you aren't sure.
Sometimes you just see things the wrong way though. It happens. I had a hold one time that appeared to be an obvious take down of a defender by the lineman. When I watched on video though I didn't notice there was another blocker outside the hold engaged with a different defender and my defender's hip was hit by that block which is what actually caused the defender to go down. It could still have been considered a hold but the feedback I got from my mentor (who worked a level where they do get graded every play) said they don't consider that a hold. That's just one example of being certain I saw something and in the view I had it was definitely a foul, but when you get to see it from a bigger context you realize you didn't have the entire picture. And it wasn't necessarily obviously wrong. Someone else could have told me they still felt there was enough restriction from my blocker to be considered a foul. Hopefully that helps you see these aren't always black or white and just seeing the grades or accountability won't necessarily help you as a fan. Having experiences like that help me get better and I try to make sure I keep my view wider when watching that kind of block to see if I can pick up that related contact.
You're right. One way to look at it, is if a quarterback drops back, reaches down and touches the ball to the ground and reaches back up, it's not downed. If he leaves the ball on the ground, it's a fumble. So if he's tackled, and only the ball touches the ground and comes out of his hand, it's a fumble the ground caused. But it is rare that happens. Usually, a pertinent part of the carrier also touches the ground. I'm not sure I made sense here, but posting it anyway. [emoji849]
Everybody loves a good conspiracy theory. The only way this happens intentionally is if the league is directing it. That would be very difficult to keep under wraps. If something like that was directed and the official complied it would greatly reduce the chance for them to advance to the NFL because their scouts would be watching them and grading them poorly because they were constantly getting calls wrong. Otherwise I have no idea why the things you mention could be happening. I'm pretty certain they aren't intentional for or against any one team. As I've mentioned before though I would think the league would definitely want to analyse it.
The issue with making them full time is there isn't much more they could do during the week. Other sports have full time officials because there are games almost every day. That's not true for football. People working D1 are probably spending 10-15 hours per week doing video review, quizzes, meetings, and self-study. They'll travel Friday for a Saturday game and return either Saturday night or Sunday depending on game time and distance home. SEC officials are probably graders for the FCS conferences in their area so they'll spend time doing that as well. If there were regular games during the week then it would make more sense to have them be full time during the season like professional hockey, basketball and baseball officials.
We had a game last week that was 56-7. The winning team had 7 fouls total and the losing team had none. It was 42-7 early in the second quarter so you are going to become less technical on some of the advantage/disadvantage fouls (i.e. holding, block in the back) and some procedural fouls (i.e. illegal formation, delay of game) unless they are huge. You never get lax on safety fouls or personal fouls. I believe 3 or 4 of the fouls were personal fouls including one face mask. Both teams ran the ball almost exclusively in the second half and their goal was to get out of there as soon as possible with no injuries. I haven't watched the video yet to see if there were any fouls we missed, but it was generally a pretty clean game.
I have no idea if something similar happened in the Arkansas game, but I thought it would be helpful to share. Time and score can play a factor. I think the D1 guys are directed to not consider it as much, but I'm sure it still has a factor on a couple calls in a close game.
Bias is always a factor, but it can definitely be a factor when watching your team or developing a rooting interest in a game. It probably plays a factor as much in what you remember from a game. You will notice and/or remember the calls you felt went against you a lot more than the ones that favored your team. That's human nature. I completely understand that. I do the same thing when I watch my favorite teams, but I'm aware I have that bias so it has less impact. If I see a call I think is wrong and went against my team I try to figure out what that official saw or what might have caused them to get it wrong. But then I move on. Because I'm an official I'm able to take the emotion out of it. Same when a coach or player makes a mistake that affects my team. I know it likely wasn't intentional.
I hope everyone realizes I'm not dismissing your frustration and dislike for the calls made by officials. You are completely entitled to those opinions and they are real because they real to you. My goal is only to give you an inside perspective that I hope you appreciate and can understand how games are officiated in all sports at all levels. We really truly don't care who wins or what happens on any play. We call what we see based on the rules being used and philosophies being taught on how to apply those rules. Officiating is a blast and a great way to stay involved with the game. I would strongly encourage anyone (men/women, young/old, rich/poor) to try it. We have a major shortage of high school and below officials. If you like it and are good at it and willing to put in the time you too could advance to the SEC or similar leagues. It's a long process (probably 10-15 years minimum) but it's a great journey.
IndyBison - I guess we're largely talking past one another here - you seem to be focusing entirely on my fandom as if I don't ever see these blatantly missed calls in other games, or those that aren't called against us. I do. All the time.
Some are understandable - perfection should be the goal but isn't attainable under the current methods by which games are officiated.
But I cannot tell you the number of times each and every week I see a referee literally looking, direct line of site, at an incredible hold that doesn't get flagged. Oh, I know, "you can call holding on every play if you wanted to", I've heard the platitudes - the reality is there are literally potentially game-changing situations each and every week where a DE our OLB get hooked and tackled right in front of the referee with no flag. And yes, I'm biased, but I see a lot of it in Bama games, as generally speaking the Bama players are biggerfasterstronger than anyone else these OLs have seen, and they get beat rather consistently. This isn't when Bama is up by 40, it often happens in the first quarter.
Conspiracy? Nah.
Apathy towards calling the game as accurately as possible under the belief that Bama's gonna likely win by 30+ anyway? Sure.
Some are understandable - perfection should be the goal but isn't attainable under the current methods by which games are officiated.
But I cannot tell you the number of times each and every week I see a referee literally looking, direct line of site, at an incredible hold that doesn't get flagged. Oh, I know, "you can call holding on every play if you wanted to", I've heard the platitudes - the reality is there are literally potentially game-changing situations each and every week where a DE our OLB get hooked and tackled right in front of the referee with no flag. And yes, I'm biased, but I see a lot of it in Bama games, as generally speaking the Bama players are biggerfasterstronger than anyone else these OLs have seen, and they get beat rather consistently. This isn't when Bama is up by 40, it often happens in the first quarter.
Conspiracy? Nah.
Apathy towards calling the game as accurately as possible under the belief that Bama's gonna likely win by 30+ anyway? Sure.
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