Have EVs Reached A Short-Term Peak?

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Interesting take on EVs from Peter Zeihan, about 6 minutes long:


His hypothesis is that EVs have reached a short-term peak, and may decline for a while until some fundamental changes happen.

You may have noticed that Ford and GM have cancelled most of their plans to produce EVs, and Tesla is scaling back planned expansion of production capacity.

There are several things going on here. Not part of the contraction in production is the fact that EVs aren't all that environmentally friendly.

First, Zeihan maintains that the numbers manufacturers use to calculate carbon breakeven assume every possible green input -- which doesn't exist in the real world.

- They assume that the vehicles' components are manufactured with clean energy and that the components are assembled with clean energy. That's highly variable, and generally not true.

- They assume that energy used to charge the vehicles is 100% green. Again, not true.

- Example: The greenest state in the union is California, which still uses fossil fuels to generate about 50% of its electricity. It imports about 30% of its energy from Arizona, which is 100% fossil-fuel generated, yet California claims not to know what is used to generate the energy it imports.

- It takes a LOT of energy to get the raw materials -- Lithium, carbon fiber, nickel, molybdenum, etc. -- from in the ground to the necessary purity to be used in EVs. Most of that refinement is done in China, where the energy is generated by soft coal and lignite -- some of the dirtiest of all fossil fuels. And that assumes you take the Chinese word for their energy use, and they lie about all their numbers.

Second, EV sales are stagnating for several reasons:
- An EV typically costs about $10K more than a comparable ICE car, and the difference can be much greater.

- If you're doing anything other than puttering around town on daily errands (and therefore able to charge your car over night in your garage), range anxiety is real.

- Energy payback doesn't take into account the cost of buying a home charging station, installing it, and running the necessary power line to your home.

- Charging stations can be hard to find.

- IF you can find one, they have notoriously unreliable operation -- IOW, a lot of them don't work.

- It still takes a long time to fully charge up a car, even on a supercharger.

IOW, significantly higher upfront expenditure, hard to find an operational refueling station, and if you do it takes a long time to refuel. Understandably, the general public is unenthused.

So Ford, GM and Tesla are having a hard time moving the EV inventory they have, much less expanding market share.

We have about 1% EVs on the roads now. Unrelated to the general public, but a valid consideration is that to have that number go to, say 25%, we'd have to massively increase the electrical grid....which is years off, even if we start today.

Zeihan advocates for stopping the emphasis on EVs. The technology just isn't yet there. He calls himself, "a Green who can do math," and advocates diverting that investment capital to other more promising areas of environmentally conscious production.

Disappointingly, not only does Zeihan not drill into some of those alternatives, he doesn't even name them. I wish he had at least said, "For example, X, Y and Z, each of which we'll examine in more detail over the next three installments." But he didn't.

My personal opinion is that we'll eventually get there, and EVs (probably fueled by nuclear power) are in fact the future. But that future is a long way off, and probably not in my lifetime.
 
Been reading that Toyota is on the cusp of having a battery that can go between 750-900 miles and charge in 10 minutes. I think they’re predicting 2028 so probably add a few years to that prediction. Hopefully such news spurs on others to increase research and development projects of their own.
 
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I did some math a few years ago, and roughed out that to move transportation off of fossil fuels will require around 50 percent more electric production in the US. So that’s a ways off.
I think that as battery energy density is increased, EVs will make more sense and will be more viable. There’s a reason why the electric Ford F-150 weighs 6000 pounds.

But for all this to happen, there’s going to have to be supply chains that support it.

I think hybrids in the nearer term make more sense. Nearer term meaning the next 30 years.
 
Been reading that Toyota is on the cusp of having a battery that can go between 750-900 miles and charge in 10 minutes. I think they’re predicting 2028 so probably add a few years to that prediction. Hopefully such news spurs on others to increase research and development projects of their own.
To be fair, and I'm a Toyota fan, but they've been claiming being on the verge of this kind of breakthrough for about a decade now with nothing having materialized.
 
His hypothesis is that EVs have reached a short-term peak, and may decline for a while until some fundamental changes happen.
As an 'eventual EV proponent' I think he's correct. The infrastructure just isn't there yet, to the point that my parents (who have an EV as their only car now) rent ICE cars when they need to make a road trip. Some trips are doable, but some are a real risk wrt being able to charge efficiently on the way.

I'm on the waiting list for a Cybertruck, but I've no idea what the future looks like for me. I may just stick with my (paid for and extremely reliable) ICE vehicles.
 
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Yes but they also need the truck to weigh 6000 or more pounds to qualify for IRS Sec. 179 write off. This deduction is a major source of sales of pickups and large SUVs.

I did some math a few years ago, and roughed out that to move transportation off of fossil fuels will require around 50 percent more electric production in the US. So that’s a ways off.
I think that as battery energy density is increased, EVs will make more sense and will be more viable. There’s a reason why the electric Ford F-150 weighs 6000 pounds.

But for all this to happen, there’s going to have to be supply chains that support it.

I think hybrids in the nearer term make more sense. Nearer term meaning the next 30 years.
 
I did some math a few years ago, and roughed out that to move transportation off of fossil fuels will require around 50 percent more electric production in the US. So that’s a ways off.
I think that as battery energy density is increased, EVs will make more sense and will be more viable. There’s a reason why the electric Ford F-150 weighs 6000 pounds.

But for all this to happen, there’s going to have to be supply chains that support it.

I think hybrids in the nearer term make more sense. Nearer term meaning the next 30 years.
I’ve got a friend with a Lincoln hybrid that will run as a true ev around town and doesn’t need to be charged the v-6 will charge the battery when it takes over. You can get great mileage with it. I think that tech it a great short term alternative.
 
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I’ve got a friend with a Lincoln hybrid that will run as a true ev around town and doesn’t need to be charged the v-6 will charge the battery when it takes over. You can get great mileage with it. I think that tech it a great short term alternative.
The Prius has quietly dominated the hybrid market since its debut. Hybrid tech is not without its pitfalls, but is probably the smartest way forward for now while we wait for the infrastructure to catch up to the tech.
 
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The Prius has quietly dominated the hybrid market since its debut. Hybrid tech is not without its pitfalls, but is probably the smartest way forward for now while we wait for the infrastructure to catch up to the tech.
What I like is that car can be total ev and go 40mph if I just manage my acceleration. I agree the infrastructure isn’t there yet but I hope the tech improves and the infrastructure grows b
 
To be fair, and I'm a Toyota fan, but they've been claiming being on the verge of this kind of breakthrough for about a decade now with nothing having materialized.
Fully understood. The last news I saw was about a manufacturing breakthrough. I think many researchers have some sort of high functioning battery technology but mass manufacturing is a problem. But I’m not an expert on the topic.
 
I've owned both a pure EV and and electric drive hybrid. I would highly recommend the EV hybrid for most people, since it gets 105 mpg equivalent in town for 50 miles and when you need to drive hundreds of miles, it drives on gas just like any car. But going forward, as battery technology improves, it will make less and less sense to drive ICE engines. I think the battery technology is close; however, the comparable EV car is still expensive and heavy with a young but maturing charging network. With that said, the Tesla Model 3/Y is a heck of a car for traveling long distances with their well design and managed network. My opinion is getting cars that cost less than ICE engines that travel 400 miles that weigh less and charge in 80% 10 minutes will be the tipping point.
 
The "green" aspects were never what attracted me to EVs, it was getting out from under the corrupt oil industry. Unfortunately, the cheapest EV is roughly $15,000 more than I ever want to spend on a car. I'm not a car guy so I want my monthly payments to be $300 or less.

Tesla fascinated me for a number of years because I saw it more as a new gadget and less as a car. After reading the r/tesla sub-Reddit for a number of years I don't think I would ever buy one now. Their quality control stinks, and their customer service can be questionable at times, especially if you don't have a Tesla dealership anywhere near you, like in Alabama.
 
If civilization unravels and I need to get out of town quick, I don't think I want to rely on EV...
Maybe not TEOTWAWKI but in the event of a natural disaster that necessitates widespread evacuation, I'm wanting an ICE vehicle. And if it's due to an EMP, I've got an 50+ year old ICE that will run on basically anything petrol and (of course) no computers.
 
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Maybe not TEOTWAWKI but in the event of a natural disaster that necessitates widespread evacuation, I'm wanting an ICE vehicle. And if it's due to an EMP, I've got an 50+ year old ICE that will run on basically anything petrol and (of course) no computers.
Let me guess. Your 50 old vehicle is a Land Rover? How many miles?
 

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