Is Shula the offenses' problem?
- Thread starter HammerJammer
- Start date
One thing to consider - teams that pass first tend to put up the numbers that you want. Right now, Bama has a pass first offense. The problem, if the QB or receivers have a bad day, pass first offenses don't score at all.SaintDeuce said:
High flying offenses rarley win championships because they are usually too inconsistent and they give up a lot of turnovers. Give me a solid defense, a strong O-Line and a great running game, and I'll happily settle for 17 ppg...
Good Post!NYBamaFan said:
You know I still think that our Offense is a "work in progress" and we haven't seen the whole scheme of things. Each year we add a bit more and a couple of new wrinkles here and there.
BTW - Coach Bowden was "enthralled" with the job that Coach Stallings did at Alabama, being an Alabama fan himself.
No.
CMS is not the problem.
I also take issue with scoring averages. Alabama has a tradition of incredible ball control offenses. They have a tradition of great running backs and offensive linemen. We have had some great receivers and QBs grace BDS, but our tradition lies in the smashmouth running game. Defense, ball control and dominating the line of scrimmage is what ultimately wins championships.
It's not that we haven't got a two-dimensional offense this year. It's that we have a zero-dimensional offense in the second half. I refuse to give LSU's defense too much credit for this, as our offense did score seven more points on them than they did MSU. But other than Darby, none of the guys are playing that well.
CMS is not the problem.
I also take issue with scoring averages. Alabama has a tradition of incredible ball control offenses. They have a tradition of great running backs and offensive linemen. We have had some great receivers and QBs grace BDS, but our tradition lies in the smashmouth running game. Defense, ball control and dominating the line of scrimmage is what ultimately wins championships.
It's not that we haven't got a two-dimensional offense this year. It's that we have a zero-dimensional offense in the second half. I refuse to give LSU's defense too much credit for this, as our offense did score seven more points on them than they did MSU. But other than Darby, none of the guys are playing that well.
There is not one set passing offense. There is a lot that goes into a passing game. Right now what we are running is deep 15-20 yard routes and fly patterns. The result is a lot of incompletions and a very low margin for error. Brodie is having to fit a lot of passes into tight spots or having to deliver perfect passes.NYBamaFan said:
NYBamaFan....you would realistically settle for 17 points per game? I am trying to have an intelligent conversation about an important aspect of this team that needs improving...most people that know anything about football in the modern era wouldn't even consider your opinion worthy if you stated that 17 pts. would be a number that you would be content with.
If you want 17 points per game, then you want the Tennessee Volounteer offense.
In order to win championships IN THE MODERN ERA OF FOOTBALL it takes at least 28 points per game offensively and an efficient offense that can move the ball on a 8-11 play drive with 6 minutes to go in the fourth quarter to win BIG games.
Alabama does not run a 'pass first' offense. Alabama runs a bland pro-set that emphasizes balance. Alabama has had balance, but they've also had predictability.
LOL - I won't bite. I'll just reply. Yes, I would take a team that could score 17 ppg in the SEC on the ground and our defense. You like modern college football? Look what Bama did in 1992. Look what LSU did 2 years ago. Look what the Sooners did before them. Still think I am the stupid one?
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Alright, now you are putting me in the position of defending Auburn, which is ridiculous.ldlane said:
Auburn played a GOOD non conference team to open the season, Georgia Tech, and they lost. A situation Alabama has had the misfortune of going through in previous seasons against UCLA and Oklahoma. Alabama has not faced a competent non-conference team this season. Auburn's other loss came @LSU, a game in which they gained 451 yards total offense and missed 5 FGs on the road. In otherwords, they prooobably should have won the game.
Are you trying to make the point that even though Auburn has a better offense than Alabama that Alabama has a better record, and therefor my previous points about offense were incorrect??
Well, let me tell you that Auburn has a much better offense than Alabama, as well as a tenacious defense right now, and therefor have a much, much better shot at going on the road and defeated a QUALITY opponent...
...just like they did tonight, against UGA. Their defense had a down night, allowing 30 pts. Well, the offense picked up the slack, went right down the field on the final drive of the game against a VERY good UGA D, and scored the game-winning FG. AU had well over 400 yards tonight.
I didn't read all the posts, but I say Coach Shula and the offensive scheme aren't the problem. I will say our personnel is young, and we're still not very deep at several postions right now. With the way our staff is recruiting we're going to be winning a lot of games in the future. I'm very impressed with our offensive strategy tonight, and to this point of the season so far. Once we get some more experienced players, and upgrade our personnel we will see some very solid Alabama offenses.
Well...sorry to say...but things have changed quite a bit from 1992 to 2005. For one, the playing field in college football has evened quite a bit and the offenses in the SEC and around the country have gotten A LOT better.NYBamaFan said:
And as for LSU...uh...they averaged 33 points per game in 2003...and had the best offense in the SEC.
And as for Oklahoma in 2000 (I'm assuming)...they had the best passing game in the Big 12 and the best offense, total yards-wise and scoring-wise. You know what Bob Stoops did his first year there?? He hired Mike Leech, a guy with an aggressive gameplan offensively. This, coupled with Stoops' defensive prowess, eventually led to an excellent combination of offense and defense...which obviously led to the 2000 national championship.
Those were two not-so-good examples...at all...and in fact helped to further my point that in the modern era of football you must score points as well as play excellent D.
Never mind. I am not going to attack you. We disagree. I am okay with that...SaintDeuce said:
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Oh, and about the offense I'm suggesting...NYBamaFan said:
I'm not talking about any of this BS gimmick spread crap...good god...anything but that.
Just a well-run offense with an efficient passing game...emphasizing the 8-10 yard routes and INTELLIGENT PLAY CALLING...something that has been lacking at Alabama the past three seasons.
We have to have an offense that averages at least 160 yards rushing per game...as well as 235 passing per game.
Those are ideal numbers...and technically not too far off from what we are 'trying' to do.
Unfortunately, our passing game is VERY unrefined and is based on looooooong developing routes which require time in the pocket.
Also, Brodie's mechanics are absolutely terrible. He absolutely lacks confidence in the pocket. Even against the lesser teams when he's had time to throw he has thrown off his back foot. Also, there is no in-between in his passing style. He simply LASERS the ball on the majority of his passes. Just very unrefined, but obviously it's too late to mess with his mechanics until an NFL QB coach can get with him and correct some of these things.
Well, this isn't just about "how I'd like our offense to look and how many passing yards and rushing yards and points Id like...etc etc"...ldlane said:
This is about the Alabama football team taking the next step.
We have the defensive coaching in place to have a GOOD defense ranking in the top 2-3 in the SEC every year right now.
However, the offensive coaching is a totally different story.
Which side of the football RIGHT NOW would be more likely to succeed WITHOUT adequate personnel? Offense or Defense? Think about it...and whatever the answer is, what is the reason for it? Coaching. Joe Kines is proven as a D-coordinator. The offensive staff that is currently at Alabama is 100% unproven and has NO track-record of success.
Looking at this situation on paper, which side of the ball is more likely to succeed?
The side of the football with a savvy veteran that has a proven track-record of turning around defenses and making them into dominant ones?
Or the side of the football where the coaches have no track-record of success? And, in fact, only have a record of failure?
I mean...this is not a difficult situation to diagnose. You have to look at this objectively...not as if these people were the coaches at Alabama...just look at this situation and see if it makes sense at all. In my opinion...savvy, veteran, proven coaching over young, unsavvy, and poor track-record just makes a lot of sense.
Sorry if this seems aggressive or something...but I am simply of the opinion that this football team would be A LOT better and would take that next step...if only there was an offense to complement that defense.
I love CMS and all...but I do NOT love his offensive playcalling abilities.
In four seasons calling the plays at Tampa Bay..
1996: 13.8 points per game
1997: 18.7 points per game
1998: 19.6 pionts per game
1999: 16.9 points per game
2000: Dolphins QB Coach
Granted, the NFL and college football are two entirely different animals...but what does this tell you after watching Alabama's offense the previous three seasons? Just think about it.
One last comment. Shula's play calling was working early in the season against weaker opponents. It even worked against USC and FL. How many points might Shula's offense score with a solid O-Line and a few receivers that can hold onto the ball?
Now, I still don't like pass first offenses, but you are just being unfair. Give Shula a chance with some talent (throughout the offensive unit) before you decide...
Now, I still don't like pass first offenses, but you are just being unfair. Give Shula a chance with some talent (throughout the offensive unit) before you decide...
I've judged this offense in situations where the personnel that has been a burden for the team (this season the offensive line) has not led to the demise of certain plays (sacks, pressures, tackles behind the line, etc).ldlane said:
Other than the games against Tennessee and LSU (maybe the two best defensive lines in the country?) the offensive line has given the offense a GREAT chance to succeed.
But what are we doing when the offense gives Brodie time? That is what I've been critical of the past three seasons. This all sounds way too technical and picky, but it IS the nuances of this offense that are dragging it down. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but how many times this season has Alabama had an EASY play, where the result of the play working was how it WAS DRAWN UP, instead of how perfect the play is executed?
That is how I judge an offense. How many easy plays are there, where the the offense aggressively puts the defense out of position by confusion or just a well-designed play.
Simply put, Alabama runs VERY few passing routes that are high percentage. For the most part the ONLY high percentage passes are flairs out to the running backs in the flat, as opposed to bunching a group of three recievers and sending to deep while one curls underneath for a 7 yard pick up. Easy 7 yards. That was just a random example, but it is a microcasm of what I'm talking about.
How many missed deep balls has Brodie thrown this year? Putting us in 2nd or 3rd and long instead of a 8-9 yard out-route to the sideline, setting up 2nd or 3rd and 1.
There is little diversity in our gameplan from week-to-week on offense...the offense that we ran this week? Well, it's the same offense with the same plays that we've run for the previous 31 games under CMS. Now, some may say they like this approach...but you can't say that giving the defense LESS to prepare for is a good thing.
The Bottom line is that there is no way that SaintDuece is going to be happy with Alabama's offense until it averages over 30 pts. a game, even if we go undefeated. Accordingly, we must become a "Modern" offense because we are still "backwards" and haven't caught up with the times.NYBamaFan said:
Again, the only thing required of an offense is that it score more than the other team.
The FL and SC games are the two classic examples that everyone points back to...saying, "hey! look at this! see?? we do have a good offense! just give it time!"NYBamaFan said:
Well...we had one sustained drive vs. UF. The other 3 TDs came on three plays. One play in which Brodie actually managed to hit a wide open reciever down the field...something that has been VERY unusual this season, a quick slant to Keith Brown in which he took it 65 yards for a TD, and of course starting at the opponents 2 yard line is not much of a drive either.
These are three occurences where BIG PLAYS by PLAYERS are the reason for the score...BIG PLAYS...that is the only method of scoring that has worked for Alabama thus far, because the offense is incapable of sustaining a decent drive because it requires 8-10 GOOD play calls.
This is another example of the offense being predicated on players making plays, and Alabama HAVING to have good players to compensate for average playcalling, as opposed to great playcalling compensating for average players.
During the SC game, Keith Brown again made a play on his own...breaking 3 tackles and going 60 yards for a TD. Earlier in the game on 3rd down Brodie Croyle scrambled for the TD. Again, a result of a player making a play. This was obviously not drawn up. Another TD came when we were up 30-7 and on 3rd and 15 or so John Parker Wilson just lofted the ball in the air and hit Keith Brown on a fly-route. A result of the pass being delivered perfectly on a fly-route. Sorry...there is no offensive ingenuity involved in having your reciever run straight down the field and telling your RS frosh. QB to try and hit him streaking down the sideline.
Haha...nah...if we go 13-0 I will have no reason to complain because I'll know that the offense has finally arrived! :wink:ldlane said:
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