Issues in Education

[RollTide_HTTR]

So, the question is where does today's culture come from?

I'm unsure that there can possibly be one singular answer, or even one singular culture we can trace back to a specific source.

But I do think slavery, segregation, discrimination, and later on mass incarceration have had a large impact Black communities in the US and those effects are still being felt.

 

[Tidewater]

I'm unsure that there can possibly be one singular answer, or even one singular culture we can trace back to a specific source.

But I do think slavery, segregation, discrimination, and later on mass incarceration have had a large impact Black communities in the US and those effects are still being felt.

Probably. Slavery ended 160 years ago. Legal segregation sixty years ago. Racial discrimination is illegal in most cases today and more importantly, is culturally discouraged today. As for mass incarceration, I guess a case could be made linking low valuing of education and mass incarceration, but I do not see it.

What is felt today, however, can be seen in two counter-cases from my own personal experience. I worked (and ate and slept) alongside two great soldiers, both black, both the product of single-parent households, one from Phillie, the other from DC. The guy from Phillie earned his way into the Air Force Academy, the guy from DC earned his way into West Point. I knew them both at mid-career majors. The guy in DC told me that, growing up, black classmates called him "Oreo," ("black on the outside and white on the inside") because he tried academically and earned good grades. That tells me two things:
1. His mother valued education and made him study while in school.
2. To the black classmates, academic achievement was somehow not genuinely black. That, of course, is ludicrous. There is nothing inherently black or unblack about achieving academically, but the cultural norm mentioned by his classmates came from somewhere. My friend from DC did not buy into it, but evidently many of his classmates did.

Culture, in my view, is like the water the fish swims in. The fish is not constantly aware it is around him, but it is there. Likewise, we do not spend all day every day thinking about our culture, but we exist in it and it influences us all the time.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'm far more persuaded by the scholarship of Thomas Sowell on the subject. Social and economic disparities in the black community stem primarily from culture, family structure, and welfare policies rather than contemporary systemic racism.

Sowell has written extensively on how government anti-poverty programs and liberal interventions often hurt the black community by weakening personal responsibility and family autonomy.

He also has showed that attributing modern socioeconomic gaps exclusively to racism ignores counter-examples of groups facing discrimination who achieved parity, emphasizing instead individual lifestyle choices, educational focus, and human capital. You are doomed to failed if you do some or all of the following: don't finish high school or learn a trade, spend time in the criminal justice system, earn trash credit scores, have children out-of-wedlock, etc. It's not hard to see why people fail: they make bad choices. They choose to fail. And government policy subsidizes (thereby encouraging) this behavior.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Probably. Slavery ended 160 years ago. Legal segregation sixty years ago. Racial discrimination is illegal in most cases today and more importantly, is culturally discouraged today. As for mass incarceration, I guess a case could be made linking low valuing of education and mass incarceration, but I do not see it.

What is felt today, however, can be seen in two counter-cases from my own personal experience. I worked (and ate and slept) alongside two great soldiers, both black, both the product of single-parent households, one from Phillie, the other from DC. The guy from Phillie earned his way into the Air Force Academy, the guy from DC earned his way into West Point. I knew them both at mid-career majors. The guy in DC told me that, growing up, black classmates called him "Oreo," ("black on the outside and white on the inside") because he tried academically and earned good grades. That tells me two things:
1. His mother valued education and made him study while in school.
2. To the black classmates, academic achievement was somehow not genuinely black. That, of course, is ludicrous. There is nothing inherently black or unblack about achieving academically, but the cultural norm mentioned by his classmates came from somewhere. My friend from DC did not buy into it, but evidently many of his classmates did.

Culture, in my view, is like the water the fish swims in. The fish is not constantly aware it is around him, but it is there. Likewise, we do not spend all day every day thinking about our culture, but we exist in it and it influences us all the time.

I've had the same experience with many grad school classmates. They all received grief from their neighbors for "wanting to be white." That's a shameful attitude. Becoming more intelligent and successful is not "being white." It's "being Asian."

A related commment is that my black classmates were amused that they got full scholarships to grad school just for being black. Asian and white students competed for merit scholarships. Black students, even if from wealthy families, got a free ride based on race. As I was told by my classmates, "This is a really stupid policy. And a bit racist that I can't get judged on merit - as if I'm less intelligent and deserving of pity. Whatever. If white liberals feel guilty, I'll take the money so they can feel more noble about themselves."

 

[crimsonaudio]

I do not debate that culture can impact academic performance. I do doubt your original more specific claim about why this may exist in some communities today.

I've no idea where the failure in some black cultures developed, though the inarguably exist in places like south Memphis (eschewing education, lack of a father at home (roughly 77%), attraction to the 'gang' lifestyle, etc). I'm curious as to where you think these self-destructive cultural tendencies developed. That cultural rot is a problem I worked to solve for many years in Memphis before we eventually gave up and moved away, but to this day I don't understand that particular black culture ( I specify black here as while these cultural tendencies do show up across racial boundaries, they dominate the poverty stricken black communities in most large cities).

Ultimately, unless / until we can show them that education is the rising tide that will lift them and their families out of poverty and give them options, it seems this will continue. And that's before we even discuss the 'crabs in the bucket' aspect of it.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I've no idea where the failure in some black cultures developed, though the inarguably exist in places like south Memphis (eschewing education, lack of a father at home (roughly 77%), attraction to the 'gang' lifestyle, etc). I'm curious as to where you think these self-destructive cultural tendencies developed. That cultural rot is a problem I worked to solve for many years in Memphis before we eventually gave up and moved away, but to this day I don't understand that particular black culture ( I specify black here as while these cultural tendencies do show up across racial boundaries, they dominate the poverty stricken black communities in most large cities).

Ultimately, unless / until we can show them that education is the rising tide that will lift them and their families out of poverty and give them options, it seems this will continue. And that's before we even discuss the 'crabs in the bucket' aspect of it.

I think that is likely a very complex question with a layered answer. I do not think these tendencies are universal. Socioeconomic status plays a role and I think the disproportionate poverty found in some Black communities is partly connected to historical oppression. Upward mobility is difficult already and generations of exclusion and disadvantage can make it even harder.

That said, I don't know the full answer. It is likely incredibly complex as most things are. But I also don't think we can ignore the role oppression has played and how that may have compounded issues over years. Those effects are not simply undone because certain aspects of that oppression have ended or become less severe or even if you believe they are gone completely.

I am also not sure what the solution is. Unfortunately fixing problems this large requires a lot of coordination, thought, flexibility, humility and funding and those things rarely come together to the degree needed.

 

[Bodhisattva]

... Upward mobility is difficult already ...

I disagree particularly with this statement. In this country, upward mobility is relatively easy. (It's getting harder thanks to governmental stupidity.) Get a skill that will lead to good compensation. Invest much of your disposable income. (What a concept!) Don't ruin your life by being a criminal or ruining your credit. Don't have children you can't afford. All that is personal responsibility and choice. And I know the response is the excuse of discrimination. To that I say why do millions of immigrants come here with nothing and become wildly successful? My wife and her peers started off as low as you can get on the socio-economic ladder at the international level. My wife's family was declared an enemy of the state and her father jailed in a "re-education" camp. Every time they started a business it got taken away. Every time they obtained a house they got evicted. The poor in America have it extremely soft by comparison. I decline to accept the soft racism of low expectations.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I disagree particularly with this statement. In this country, upward mobility is relatively easy. (It's getting harder thanks to governmental stupidity.) Get a skill that will lead to good compensation. Invest much of your disposable income. (What a concept!) Don't ruin your life by being a criminal or ruining your credit. Don't have children you can't afford. All that is personal responsibility and choice. And I know the response is the excuse of discrimination. To that I say why do millions of immigrants come here with nothing and become wildly successful? My wife and her peers started off as low as you can get on the socio-economic ladder at the international level. My wife's family was declared an enemy of the state and her father jailed in a "re-education" camp. Every time they started a business it got taken away. Every time they obtained a house they got evicted. The poor in America have it extremely soft by comparison. I decline to accept the soft racism of low expectations.

Personal responsibility obviously matters especially on the individual level. That does not make upward mobility easy and does not exclude other factors from mattering. Your wife's families story sounds intense and her perseverance is impressive. But individual anecdotes do not clearly show how mobility works across an entire population. Admitting there are barriers is not the same thing as saying people are incapable of overcoming those barriers.

I also think you are missing something. I don't think people should have to go through what your wife and her family went through in order to succeed. I would rather their road have been much easier.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I think that is likely a very complex question with a layered answer. I do not think these tendencies are universal. Socioeconomic status plays a role and I think the disproportionate poverty found in some Black communities is partly connected to historical oppression. Upward mobility is difficult already and generations of exclusion and disadvantage can make it even harder.

That said, I don't know the full answer. It is likely incredibly complex as most things are. But I also don't think we can ignore the role oppression has played and how that may have compounded issues over years. Those effects are not simply undone because certain aspects of that oppression have ended or become less severe or even if you believe they are gone completely.

I am also not sure what the solution is. Unfortunately fixing problems this large requires a lot of coordination, thought, flexibility, humility and funding and those things rarely come together to the degree needed.

Fair enough, but how do we fit into the conversation all of the governmental funded programs that have been provided (for umpteen decades) that are literally designed specifically for the black race to close that gap? Beginning with pre-K, Kindergarten, elementary level THROUGH graduating college. There are governmental programs that not only provide advanced educational opportunities, but pay for them and up through the HS level, they provide year around meals to the students that participate? I know this because I work in this area of government. Then, there are college opportunities (full ride scholarships) provided to young black kids just for being black. They don't have to have a certain ACT or SAT score, they don't have to have a certain grade point average. They literally can go to college and have it paid for for being black. Yet we still see a large portion of the black community living in poverty level with zero education and zero skillset to function in society.

Our society has always said that "opportunity" and "access" have been the biggest reasons blacks are behind other races. Those barriers have long been removed and there have been government programs for each stage of life provided to the black race to help them rise up out of poverty and the gang life that is so prevalent in the black community. So why do we still see a large % of the black community still living in poverty, crime and ulimately end up being incarcerated? I'm not saying the above things should have eliminated the problem, but it should have drastically lowered the %'s of the statistics that still exist in the black community.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Maybe we should move this to a different thread. I feel like I've accidently made this no longer education focused?

 

[Bodhisattva]

Personal responsibility obviously matters especially on the individual level. That does not make upward mobility easy and does not exclude other factors from mattering. Your wife's families story sounds intense and her perseverance is impressive. But individual anecdotes do not clearly show how mobility works across an entire population. Admitting there are barriers is not the same thing as saying people are incapable of overcoming those barriers.

I appreciate the kind words about my wife's family.

Look at the population of many immigrant communities to this country - particularly among Asian communities. They are doing better that anyone - including the white "oppressors." Why is that? Could it be some communities just care about succeeding more than others? It seems obviousl the answer is "yes."

Back in my dating years, I had several girlfriends who were teachers. They all had the same experience when dealing with certain populations. The kids didn't care. The parents didn't care. The school bureaucracy didn't care.

I also think you are missing something. I don't think people should have to go through what your wife and her family went through in order to succeed. I would rather their road have been much easier.

It is much easier for people who were born in America. I was born very poor; now I'm not. No trick to achievement. Countless examples of people climbing the ladder to success. And if you are privileged minority, you get free rides to college with lower entrance standards and follow-on hiring privileges. I see this nonsense all the time. Yet, many don't want to take advantage of their privilege. Even when heavily subsidized, putting forth any effort is often more than one wants to do. Some people insist on being stupid, and the lack of success follows.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Maybe we should move this to a different thread. I feel like I've accidently made this no longer education focused?

Trouble-maker!

 

[crimsonaudio]

Maybe we should move this to a different thread. I feel like I've accidently made this no longer education focused?

Unless others feel the same I think it should stay as - and I could be mistaken - I feel that the fundamental underlying issue wrt these cultural problems is lack of education.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Unless others feel the same I think it should stay as - and I could be mistaken - I feel that the fundamental underlying issue wrt these cultural problems is lack of education.

I agree. It's the give a man a fish or teach a man to fish choice. Education is teaching a man to fish. That's a far more effective way to change the trajectory of people's lives.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Fair enough, but how do we fit into the conversation all of the governmental funded programs that have been provided (for umpteen decades) that are literally designed specifically for the black race to close that gap? Beginning with pre-K, Kindergarten, elementary level THROUGH graduating college. There are governmental programs that not only provide advanced educational opportunities, but pay for them and up through the HS level, they provide year around meals to the students that participate? I know this because I work in this area of government. Then, there are college opportunities (full ride scholarships) provided to young black kids just for being black. They don't have to have a certain ACT or SAT score, they don't have to have a certain grade point average. They literally can go to college and have it paid for for being black. Yet we still see a large portion of the black community living in poverty level with zero education and zero skillset to function in society.

There are so many examples that prove you correct. Lan taught nursing classes on the side for a while. (She loves teaching and always volunteers to show nursing students the ropes at her hospitals.) For a couple of semesters when we lived in Virginia, she actually was an adjunct professor at a nursing school. Unfortunately, it was very frustrating trying to teach the black students in her classes. They did not do their work. They did not answer questions during classroom discussion. They failed every exam. The students' reasoning was that they had never, in all their years in the educational system, been required to do any substantive amount of work. They were always passed along regardless of work effort or exam results. So, why bother? Lan made it clear to them that the grade you get is the grade you earn. She ended up failing these students. Didn't matter. The grades were overridden and the students were passed along. Lan refused to return after that, deciding there was no way she would continue to be a part of this medical malpractice. I wonder how many patients have been harmed via interactions with incompetent medical professinals.

Our society has always said that "opportunity" and "access" have been the biggest reasons blacks are behind other races. Those barriers have long been removed and there have been government programs for each stage of life provided to the black race to help them rise up out of poverty and the gang life that is so prevalent in the black community. So why do we still see a large % of the black community still living in poverty, crime and ulimately end up being incarcerated? I'm not saying the above things should have eliminated the problem, but it should have drastically lowered the %'s of the statistics that still exist in the black community.

There will never be an end to it. It's a lucrative grift on part of the politicians, their NGO allies, and "community leaders" to continue to claim stuctural racism decades after it has ceased to exist. Well, I guess it hasn't exactly ended. As you correctly point out, racist policies in favor a non-Asian minorities is alive and well. Coddling failure and punishing success is incredbly harmful to this country's future.

 

[Bodhisattva]

View attachment 58024

I too was a victim of unlicensed, homemade barbery in my youth. The trauma was unspeakable! It was bad enough being subjected to the public education system. To have to attend with a haircut like this guy's ... millions of children suffer needlessly every year. We have to do better ... for the children!

 

[JDCrimson]

This always turns into trying swallow the whale conversation. Until we focus on the ones that want the help, encouragement and opportunity with adequate resources the results will always be poor.

The bottom line is most of these households there is sequential generational lack of self-esteem and that has proven inheritable. I dont think we realize what genuine focused care and attention can do for someone.

 

[Tidewater]

Maybe we should move this to a different thread. I feel like I've accidently made this no longer education focused?

It is about education, but only insofar as culture is a determinant of academic success. This occurred to my during my practicum. In my college classroom, we talk about public funding on a per-student basis, teacher to student ratios/classroom size, teaching philosophy, child/developmental psychology, but, in my high school classrooms, it occurred to me that, unless we fix the culture, all of that is spitting into the wind. If students do not value education (or come from households that do not value education), then public education will continue to not achieve much success.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I'll respond to most of this sometime soon just going to take me a bit and don't have as much time today

 

[Tidewater]

Oh, boy.

Nearly 500,000 borrowers who say colleges defrauded them are getting student debt relief​

It seems to me we are caught between the truth that college students can study whatever they want to study and the hard economic reality of getting a job. The hard truth is that not all majors are equal. I doubt a petroleum engineer from Ga Tech has as difficult a task in finding employment as an art history major at Ga Tech.
I wonder how colleges and universities will adjust going forward. Will they close down departments whose graduated have a bad track record finding employment and/or a decent return on investment? If graduates of the Sociology Department at Rutgers have huge debts and no jobs that require sociology degrees, will Rutgers close down its Sociology Department to protect itself from further financial liability?