Issues in Education

[arthurdawg]

Funny, I think we’ve generally become too ’industrialized’ in our education format, as if one size fits all. If anything, I think we need to back to the more localized system you’re referring to, but with some national standards in place.

I think it needs to be modernized and synchronized with practical job skill training. I'm not opposed to the traditional curricula and the great books... But too many it is not a worthwhile usage of their time.

Honestly, the system is too entrenched for something like this, but individual systems could certainly add some modifications. We had a great trade school option when I was in high school. Lots of guys did well with it.

 

[81usaf92]

Funny, I think we’ve generally become too ’industrialized’ in our education format, as if one size fits all. If anything, I think we need to back to the more localized system you’re referring to, but with some national standards in place.

How can there be national standards when Trump literally killed them and gave full control back over to the states?

The problem with education if you really want to break it down in a big picture is that 1) We want to compete and 2) we want to pass everyone. Those two ideas are at direct odds with each other and principals are very inconsistent on what they do administration to administration.

Take a failing school for example… One principal will come in and be a hard butt about discipline and appearance standards… they will get fired for scores… then you’ll get a principal that is all about changing the culture to being kid driven…. They get for being too laxed on discipline… then you’ll get a principal all about scores… they will get fired because their veteran teachers had enough and leave. This is how a 9 year at a failing county school typically looks like. It’s just a cycle of inconsistent nonsense at the top. The problem becomes “what is the goal of a school”. Is it to “educate” or is it to “compete”. You may say “why don’t do both”, but in competition in education test scores and graduation rates are at odds with each other. Because you can have high test scores but low graduation rates and visa versa. Each administration tends to take the position of both but neither.

Then you also play with the idea that “schools are the only place that they get a good meal and keep them off the streets” line of thinking. It creates the idea of failing schools can’t truly die and should be a necessary evil so we can preserve a communal good. These schools tend to be the worst and have the lowest teacher retention.

More or less public education in most areas of the United States is a participation trophy affair at best and a world without consequences at worst. It’s why people with money and means flock to certain public schools with very strong standards and administrative support or just go alternative routes. My point is that unless we actually hold students and failing schools accountable it doesn’t matter what new ideas and curriculum you implement it will always have the same results. I also think gutting the federal government’s involvement in this is ludicrous and we are seeing the results instantly.

 

[81usaf92]

I think it needs to be modernized and synchronized with practical job skill training. I'm not opposed to the traditional curricula and the great books... But too many it is not a worthwhile usage of their time.

Honestly, the system is too entrenched for something like this, but individual systems could certainly add some modifications. We had a great trade school option when I was in high school. Lots of guys did well with it.

Most every Alabama High School allow Option B and Dual Enrollment pathways. Lately there has been a big push towards Career Tech pathways in Alabama

 

[arthurdawg]

Most every Alabama High School allow Option B and Dual Enrollment pathways. Lately there has been a big push towards Career Tech pathways in Alabama

A good thing indeed!

 

[arthurdawg]

How can there be national standards when Trump literally killed them and gave full control back over to the states?

The problem with education if you really want to break it down in a big picture is that 1) We want to compete and 2) we want to pass everyone. Those two ideas are at direct odds with each other and principals are very inconsistent on what they do administration to administration.

Take a failing school for example… One principal will come in and be a hard butt about discipline and appearance standards… they will get fired for scores… then you’ll get a principal that is all about changing the culture to being kid driven…. They get for being too laxed on discipline… then you’ll get a principal all about scores… they will get fired because their veteran teachers had enough and leave. This is how a 9 year at a failing county school typically looks like. It’s just a cycle of inconsistent nonsense at the top. The problem becomes “what is the goal of a school”. Is it to “educate” or is it to “compete”. You may say “why don’t do both”, but in competition in education test scores and graduation rates are at odds with each other. Because you can have high test scores but low graduation rates and visa versa. Each administration tends to take the position of both but neither.

Then you also play with the idea that “schools are the only place that they get a good meal and keep them off the streets” line of thinking. It creates the idea of failing schools can’t truly die and should be a necessary evil so we can preserve a communal good. These schools tend to be the worst and have the lowest teacher retention.

More or less public education in most areas of the United States is a participation trophy affair at best and a world without consequences at worst. It’s why people with money and means flock to certain public schools with very strong standards and administrative support or just go alternative routes. My point is that unless we actually hold students and failing schools accountable it doesn’t matter what new ideas and curriculum you implement it will always have the same results. I also think gutting the federal government’s involvement in this is ludicrous and we are seeing the results instantly.

What do you think about Mississippi's improvements?

 

[JDCrimson]

The technology is there and being used today such that a large farm can vary its inputs of an individual acre within a field.

Yet we cant structure the education to the individual student with technology that is readily available.

One industry is the most efficient in terms of output in the world. The other not so much...

 

[81usaf92]

What do you think about Mississippi's improvements?

I don’t work in Mississippi but a lot of the data seems to be centered around early childhood literacy acts during COVID. Which if we are selling that as the reason then it’s more indication that more pragmatic lawmaking should be the goal. They were trying to keep up with federal standards. But I haven’t really read the data so I’m just going off of limited knowledge.

However when you flip to Alabama most major laws concerning education are specifically focused on CRT, transgender questions, religious beliefs, sports, and trying to kill the public school system. So not all states are equal in terms of how they approach education.

But my overall point was how school systems work. Take Prichard Al. They have 4 failing high schools in the bottom 50 in the state. Yet we don’t get rid of the deadweight here but we pick schools in the middle to get rid of. Why? Because Vigor brings in a ton of money for Mobile county in sports and combining schools would threaten that money line. It’s how most of these county systems here work. Failing schools are treated in one of two ways… 1) they are “sports” schools or 2) they are day cares so you won’t redistrict them into your exceptional schools in the county.

If we are competing with schools then let some of these places die and redistrict them. If we are educating them then let’s come up with 10 year plans to change the outlook of these failing schools to get them better prepared for post school life. But promoting charter, private, and homeschool is just trying to nuke the fridge with the problem instead of making real changes to the system.

 

[92tide]

Most every Alabama High School allow Option B and Dual Enrollment pathways. Lately there has been a big push towards Career Tech pathways in Alabama

georgia is doing a good bit of this too

 

[Bamabuzzard]

But here is the thing… none of that addresses kids and families completely adverse towards education and are forced into doing by penalty of law. Manipulation through constructive strategies only goes so far. Sometimes a college style lecture is the only thing to keep order in a classroom full of children who see no value to learning other than preventing others to learn.

I believe in constructive ideas but at the same time each class is a different beast in itself and has to be treated that way. Especially when you have lacking support administratively and with parents. Which is the vast majority of public schools in poor counties. So its just not practical even though it is great in theory

Why should it be addressed? There's enough problems and issues dealing with kids and families who want to learn and care about education. Though it is best for them, you cant make someone value education who has no interest in it, even after being shown the value of it. Forced education and its consequences has set American education back decades.

 

[arthurdawg]

I don’t work in Mississippi but a lot of the data seems to be centered around early childhood literacy acts during COVID. Which if we are selling that as the reason then it’s more indication that more pragmatic lawmaking should be the goal. They were trying to keep up with federal standards. But I haven’t really read the data so I’m just going off of limited knowledge.

However when you flip to Alabama most major laws concerning education are specifically focused on CRT, transgender questions, religious beliefs, sports, and trying to kill the public school system. So not all states are equal in terms of how they approach education.

But my overall point was how school systems work. Take Prichard Al. They have 4 failing high schools in the bottom 50 in the state. Yet we don’t get rid of the deadweight here but we pick schools in the middle to get rid of. Why? Because Vigor brings in a ton of money for Mobile county in sports and combining schools would threaten that money line. It’s how most of these county systems here work. Failing schools are treated in one of two ways… 1) they are “sports” schools or 2) they are day cares so you won’t redistrict them into your exceptional schools in the county.

If we are competing with schools then let some of these places die and redistrict them. If we are educating them then let’s come up with 10 year plans to change the outlook of these failing schools to get them better prepared for post school life. But promoting charter, private, and homeschool is just trying to nuke the fridge with the problem instead of making real changes to the system.

Thanks for your take on the issues, its a tough issue and your knowledge is far greater than mine. And unfortunately, spot on for Alabama.

I read a long form on the Mississippi reforms, and was of course surprised that they've managed such an uptick. Almost an educational Indiana... Its a long story deeply involving my ex, but my kids ultimately ended up ended up going private here, so I haven't been involved with the public schools in a while, but witnessed the damage caused by politics in Huntsville.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Thanks for your take on the issues, its a tough issue and your knowledge is far greater than mine. And unfortunately, spot on for Alabama.

I read a long form on the Mississippi reforms, and was of course surprised that they've managed such an uptick. Almost an educational Indiana... Its a long story deeply involving my ex, but my kids ultimately ended up ended up going private here, so I haven't been involved with the public schools in a while, but witnessed the damage caused by politics in Huntsville.

I have a former highschool class who is a superintendent of a school district in MS and he is constantly bragging on social media about the improvement to MS's educational performance. I've tried to inbox him several times asking what they did to facilitate that type of change, but he's never answered.

 

[81usaf92]

Why should it be addressed? There's enough problems and issues dealing with kids and families who want to learn and care about education. Though it is best for them, you cant make someone value education who has no interest in it, even after being shown the value of it. Forced education and its consequences has set American education back decades.

Well the problem is that forcing them into schools has effectively made schools day care systems.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Well the problem is that forcing them into schools has effectively made schools day care systems.

Maybe I misunderstood. My view is, if parents/kids don't want to go to school, then don't force them. There shouldn't be any laws forcing parents to put their kids in school. We've got too many in the system who don't want to be there and are doing nothing more than (as you've said) turning classrooms designed for learning into daycares.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Why should it be addressed? There's enough problems and issues dealing with kids and families who want to learn and care about education. Though it is best for them, you cant make someone value education who has no interest in it, even after being shown the value of it. Forced education and its consequences has set American education back decades.

Easy solution, make a base-level requirement necessary for government aid.

Don't want an education? Fine, just don't come asking for welfare benefits because you're struggling.

 

[crimsonaudio]

How can there be national standards when Trump literally killed them and gave full control back over to the states?

State-level standards are fine, imo. I just meant not having a system with no standard measure of what being a HS graduate (for example) means.

The problem with education if you really want to break it down in a big picture is that 1) We want to compete and 2) we want to pass everyone. Those two ideas are at direct odds with each other and principals are very inconsistent on what they do administration to administration.

Yeah, I don't know when this changed, but when I was in school (public schools in FL) there were kids held back all the time for failing classes or entire years. I assume the standards have shifted here today (@Huckleberry would know far more than I) but I don't know.

 

[75thru79]

Maybe I misunderstood. My view is, if parents/kids don't want to go to school, then don't force them. There shouldn't be any laws forcing parents to put their kids in school. We've got too many in the system who don't want to be there and are doing nothing more than (as you've said) turning classrooms designed for learning into daycares.

We already have that except it is limited to "children" 16 years old and older. I don't think it is in the best interests of any child in the USA to not be forced into early childhood education. We can argue all we want about what age should be exempt from mandatory education but it most certainly shouldn't be anything under high school age, IMO.

 

[81usaf92]

Maybe I misunderstood. My view is, if parents/kids don't want to go to school, then don't force them. There shouldn't be any laws forcing parents to put their kids in school. We've got too many in the system who don't want to be there and are doing nothing more than (as you've said) turning classrooms designed for learning into daycares.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. I was more agreeing

 

[Bamabuzzard]

We already have that except it is limited to "children" 16 years old and older. I don't think it is in the best interests of any child in the USA to not be forced into early childhood education. We can argue all we want about what age should be exempt from mandatory education but it most certainly shouldn't be anything under high school age, IMO.

I get it. But because we've forced those kids to go to school, and have not had a solution for many of those same kids getting into the classrooms and turning it into a daycare, droves of really good teachers have left the profession and have not been replaced with equal successors. This has caused a massive watering down of the education that the kids who want to be there get. So what have we really accomplished, other than driving thousands of "born to be" school teachers out of the profession, and replacing them with "teachers" who many end up on the local and national news for having sex with their students?

The education for the average student in America (not the straight A student who gets separated out into advanced classes) has gotten highly watered down because of what the classroom of the general population students (aka "GenPop") has turned into.