Paper; Global Warming "The Biggest Science Scandal Ever"

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AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Kerry fesses up:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...-admits-american-co2-cuts-would-be-pointless/

Still waiting for an explanation how carbon is a pollutant, but what do I know.

Without any carbon dioxide, they won't be able to grow all the ganja they must be smoking.
Depends on how you define pollutant. If we define a pollutant as something actively and instantly harmful, CO2 is not a pollutant. If we define it as something that can cause serious environmental problems and destabilize natural systems when present in elevated concentrations, it certainly is a pollutant.

The most benign things can kill you. Water is vital to your survival but will kill you in high enough concentrations via dilutional hyponatremia.
 

G-VilleTider

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Depends on how you define pollutant. If we define a pollutant as something actively and instantly harmful, CO2 is not a pollutant. If we define it as something that can cause serious environmental problems and destabilize natural systems when present in elevated concentrations, it certainly is a pollutant.

The most benign things can kill you. Water is vital to your survival but will kill you in high enough concentrations via dilutional hyponatremia.
Dude, if you are actually worried about being killed by too much water, I feel for ya.
 

G-VilleTider

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Not my point. I'm just using it as an analogy. Just because something might be vital for your survival doesn't mean more of it is a good thing.
Just asking, but if the analogy makes no sense, then doesn't that invalidate the comparison?
 

Tide1986

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Depends on how you define pollutant. If we define a pollutant as something actively and instantly harmful, CO2 is not a pollutant. If we define it as something that can cause serious environmental problems and destabilize natural systems when present in elevated concentrations, it certainly is a pollutant.

The most benign things can kill you. Water is vital to your survival but will kill you in high enough concentrations via dilutional hyponatremia.
Would humans be a pollutant according to your broader definition?
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Would humans be a pollutant according to your broader definition?
No. Pollutants are restricted to substances and energies. Here's the definition from Wikipedia:

Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into the natural environment that cause adverse change. Pollution can take the form of chemical substances or energy, such as noise, heat or light. Pollutants, the components of pollution, can be either foreign substances/energies or naturally occurring contaminants.
As you can see, my "broader" definition isn't broad at all. If you're really playing fast and loose with language, we could be considered an invasive species.
 
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Tide1986

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No. Pollutants are restricted to substances and energies. Here's the definition from Wikipedia:



As you can see, my "broader" definition isn't broad at all. If you're really playing fast and loose with language, we could be considered an invasive species.
A few more questions:

What is "the natural environment"?

How is a change determined to be adverse? And related, can the introduction of a substance into the natural environment produce a beneficial change for some but an adverse change for others? If so, who wins?
 

Bama Reb

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Prince Charles at today's Paris Summit:

The Prince of Wales urged them to 'think of your grandchildren, as I think of mine' as well as the billions of people without a voice and the youngest generation as they try to secure a new global deal.

He said: 'If the planet were a patient, we would have treated her long ago. You, ladies and gentlemen, have the power to put her on life support and you must surely start the emergency procedures without further procrastination.

'Humanity faces many threats but none is greater than climate change. In damaging our climate we are becoming the architects of our own destruction. We have the knowledge, the tools and the money (to solve the crisis).'


Chuck - last figure I heard was $90 trillion to "fix" everything. How much is Buckingham Palace going to pitch in?

Speaking personally I can't stand further taxation without moving my family into a van down by the river. I'll take my chances on the flying boulders.
To this I would ask: "Treat her" how? To date, I have not seen or heard from anyone a logical course of action for "fixing" global warming.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
A few more questions:
Fair ones, too.

What is "the natural environment"?
From Wikipedia again:

Natural environment means all living and non-living things that are naturally on Earth. In a narrow sense, it is an environment that is not influenced by people. The environment that is influenced by humans can be called "the built environment" or cultural landscape.
How is a change determined to be adverse?
Ecosystems exist in a tenuous balance. There will be winners and losers, but the issue is that there will be chaos, and rapid ecological changes tend to lead to mass extinction events.

I'm not saying we're going extinct when I say mass extinction event. What I mean is that there will be a massive reduction in diversity as more and more species become extinct. We're technically in one right now.

And related, can the introduction of a substance into the natural environment produce a beneficial change for some but an adverse change for others?
Certainly. An example. Say the runoff from a farm runs into a small lake. That runoff is rich in phospates. Before you know it, you've got an algae bloom. It's beneficial for the algae.

But right behind that, you've also had a fish kill. Algae dies then decomposes. That decomposition consumes oxygen. The nitrates in the fertilizer will also result in oxygen depletion. Not much benefit for anything much more complex that algae in that scenario.

If so, who wins?
Whichever critters can adapt the fastest or can take the change in stride. Generally simpler organisms. What's happening in the oceans with them becoming more acidic as they absorb CO2 is a fine example of this. Some cnidarians will thrive. Mollusks and others that rely on calcified shells do not.
 
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TideEngineer08

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Certainly. An example. Say the runoff from a farm runs into a small lake. That runoff is rich in phospates. Before you know it, you've got an algae bloom. It's beneficial for the algae.

But right behind that, you've also had a fish kill. Algae consumes oxygen. The nitrates in the fertilizer also result in oxygen depletion. Not much benefit for anything much more complex that algae in that scenario.
Watched this happen a couple of years ago with my FIL's pond, although, he doesn't have a farm so it wasn't from that. He didn't get his aerator turned on soon enough that year, and he had an algae bloom almost overnight. It killed dozens and dozens of very large catfish that he had in that pond for years.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Watched this happen a couple of years ago with my FIL's pond, although, he doesn't have a farm so it wasn't from that. He didn't get his aerator turned on soon enough that year, and he had an algae bloom almost overnight. It killed dozens and dozens of very large catfish that he had in that pond for years.
My best friend during my middle school years had a lake we would swim in. His dad had catfish in it, so you couldn't sit still for very long or you would have them trying to take a bite out of you. There'd be blooms and kills periodically. Nasty business.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Some call it "overestimating".

Some call it an honest mistake.

The rest of us call it what it is: fraud.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/21/study-noaa-overestimated-us-warming-50/
But just remember - the cool thing with THIS is it's JUST LIKE RELIGION!!!!

Your prediction didn't come true? Instead of Mark's version of the prophecy, run to another book in the Bible (e.g. another source) to explain why the claim is still valid.

If the prediction didn't even begin to come true in terms of the temperature rising? Just say we're in a gap of time where there is 'a pause' in warming (like that invisible gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 or between the first and second advent).
 

cuda.1973

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Just like?

It is a religion.

Welcome to the First Church of Climatology, AlGor, High Priest and Overseer of Carbon Indulgences. All your carbon footprint sins bought off, with a generous (and mandatory) cash donation. Your tithe will make you feel self-righteous, and make us rich!

If at first the Ice Age doesn't come, then you predict the East Coast will be under 3' of water, and when that doesn't happen, you say "WE ONLY HAVE TEN MORE GOOD YEARS LEFT", and failing that, you call it "global warming", or "global cooling", or just plain ol' "climate change". And when all else fails, use the tried and true Alinsky fall back:

"YOU ARE JUST A DENIER!"

I am really going to lose sleep over that one................
 
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