QB Competition 2018

The thing is... all the pieces are there for Hurts to be a 3000 yard passer/1000 yard rusher.

In 2018 he'll have Josh Jacobs, Najee Harris, and Brian Robinson to hand off too. No one else will have depth like that returning.

In 2018 he'll be able to throw to Jeudy, Smith, and Ruggs with Irv Smith, Hentges, and Foristall at TE.

Bama will be LOADED at skill positions. There is no excuse not to be able to put up monster numbers. The biggest issue is at offensive line. That's a harder fix.

Playcalling is fixable. I thought Daboll calling that QB sweep/pass was fantastic. He's done a good job at point with playcalling. I think he just got into a rut and stopped being creative and doing what works.
 
I've seen frustration from some of the WR's over the course of the season - but WR's always want the ball and are "always open." (Even though quite a few were open)

If it comes down to play the O-line should thank their lucky stars Hurts is back there turning negative plays into 10 yard gains and the RB's have no reason to dislike Hurts's paly as he just hands them the ball.

This is looking at it from a play POV. I can't speak to personalities in the locker room which is what you may have heard about. But on the field the only group of people I could see being frustrated at Jalen are the receivers.

Everyone is going to be frustrated with everyone after a game like that. The solution certainly isn't to turn on one another.

Actually, the o-line has blocked very well on called run plays. They have struggled in pass protection, and Jalen's unwillingness to let a play develop while he remains in the pocket hurts the o-line, it doesn't help them. Sure, it means fewer sacks, but it also destroys the blocking scheme drawn up on that play. As soon as Jalen moves from the pocket, the o-line blocking responsibilities are thrown out the window and chaos reigns. D-linemen and LBs are faster than o-linemen, which means that the defense immediately has the edge once Jalen leaves the pocket.

You guys need to think more deeply about this. Jalen's scrambling ability is only an advantage against teams that do not have capable defensive front sevens. When Jalen scrambles against teams with a solid defensive front seven, bad things happen for Alabama most of the time. You guys want to blame your o-line. I am telling you that it is not all on them. Jalen has to learn to stay in the pocket. If he cannot, every game against a solid defense is going to be a crap shoot.
 
I've seen frustration from some of the WR's over the course of the season - but WR's always want the ball and are "always open." (Even though quite a few were open)

If it comes down to play the O-line should thank their lucky stars Hurts is back there turning negative plays into 10 yard gains and the RB's have no reason to dislike Hurts's paly as he just hands them the ball.

This is looking at it from a play POV. I can't speak to personalities in the locker room which is what you may have heard about. But on the field the only group of people I could see being frustrated at Jalen are the receivers.

Everyone is going to be frustrated with everyone after a game like that. The solution certainly isn't to turn on one another.

Respectfully, and just "FWIW" - Maybe we were watching different games last Saturday?

As for "turning negative plays into 10 yard gains" we've seen Hurts do that all the time the past two years (usually in lieu of checking down to second receivers . . . ) - but not Saturday! I saw Hurts gain yards on called QB runs, but LOSE Tons of yards on many called passes. I saw him scramble repeatedly for little or no gain - plus or minus a yard or two, and late in the game I saw him REPEATEDLY retreat from the rush only to take an unnecessary sack, or just run out of bounds 10 yards behind the LOS without even trying to throw the ball away.

When's the last time we saw a starting QB at Alabama do that kind of junk MULTIPLE times in a game? 2004 maybe when we were down to the 3rd string QB?

As for the RB's - how would you feel if you were a 4 or 5 star recruit who could have gone anywhere - and you get 6 touches in the "Big Game" - but your QB gets 17 carries - more than the top TWO RB's combined, one less than the top THREE RB's combined?

MIGHT you be feeling kind of like Ezekiel Elliot at O$U was feeling two years around this time?

Hate to say it - I KNOW "there's only one ball" - and I could understand if Jalen was cutting aub to shreds.

And I guess this will upset some people, but if I had a son who was a TOP RB or WR coming out of HS - a kid with a Serious shot at an NFL career, I'd have a hard time telling them to come to Alabama right now..... Not unless I started seeing something very different. Something more like how Saban ran the team from 2007-2015.
 
Nevermind a QB competition. Instead, how about a coaching competition? Find one that teaches o linemen how to block with a sense of meanness; so that they try to bury their opponent on every play. How about a coach who claims to run a pro-style offense, actually running one? How about a coach that rather than trying to salve a bunch of teen age egos, get one that finds the best players at a position and then lets them play - cough, cough, running back? Or how about allowing the coaches you hired to do a job, do it? There is NO identity on this team, and THAT is a coaching problem!
 
Actually, the o-line has blocked very well on called run plays. They have struggled in pass protection, and Jalen's unwillingness to let a play develop while he remains in the pocket hurts the o-line, it doesn't help them. Sure, it means fewer sacks, but it also destroys the blocking scheme drawn up on that play. As soon as Jalen moves from the pocket, the o-line blocking responsibilities are thrown out the window and chaos reigns. D-linemen and LBs are faster than o-linemen, which means that the defense immediately has the edge once Jalen leaves the pocket.


The reasons that you describe are the exact reasons in my opinion that keep Tyrod Taylor @ Buffalo from being one of the best QB's in the NFL. He runs too quick, and does not allow the play to develop. Jalen reminds me a lot of Taylor. Great talented QB, but will drive an offensive line, and coach nuts.
 
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And I guess this will upset some people, but if I had a son who was a TOP RB or WR coming out of HS - a kid with a Serious shot at an NFL career, I'd have a hard time telling them to come to Alabama right now..... Not unless I started seeing something very different. Something more like how Saban ran the team from 2007-2015.

The recruiting impact is a big concern. While it may be true scouts look beyond the number of carries and total rushing yards, these boys want to tote the rock.

A running back needs to feel the rhythm of the game and only carrying it 6 or 8 times and none of them consecutively will not allow him to do so.

CNSs philosophy is to use multiple backs. That's fine and dandy, but when the QB starts becoming the major focus in the running game AND struggles to distribute the ball in the passing game, recruits will take note. It's inevitable.
 
Respectfully, and just "FWIW" - Maybe we were watching different games last Saturday?

As for "turning negative plays into 10 yard gains" we've seen Hurts do that all the time the past two years (usually in lieu of checking down to second receivers . . . ) - but not Saturday! I saw Hurts gain yards on called QB runs, but LOSE Tons of yards on many called passes. I saw him scramble repeatedly for little or no gain - plus or minus a yard or two, and late in the game I saw him REPEATEDLY retreat from the rush only to take an unnecessary sack, or just run out of bounds 10 yards behind the LOS without even trying to throw the ball away.

When's the last time we saw a starting QB at Alabama do that kind of junk MULTIPLE times in a game? 2004 maybe when we were down to the 3rd string QB?

As for the RB's - how would you feel if you were a 4 or 5 star recruit who could have gone anywhere - and you get 6 touches in the "Big Game" - but your QB gets 17 carries - more than the top TWO RB's combined, one less than the top THREE RB's combined?

MIGHT you be feeling kind of like Ezekiel Elliot at O$U was feeling two years around this time?

Hate to say it - I KNOW "there's only one ball" - and I could understand if Jalen was cutting aub to shreds.

And I guess this will upset some people, but if I had a son who was a TOP RB or WR coming out of HS - a kid with a Serious shot at an NFL career, I'd have a hard time telling them to come to Alabama right now..... Not unless I started seeing something very different. Something more like how Saban ran the team from 2007-2015.
I didn't watch the game.

Haven't been commenting on game stuff because of that but this discussion is different and spans the entirety of the last 2 seasons and not just 1 game.

Jalen should hang in the pocket longer - but lets be real - his scrambles, throughout the course of a season, are a net gain rather than a loss in regards to how it makes the O-line look.

I'm not talking about his ability to read the field from the pocket or stay in long enough to hit a receiver or his maddening habit of rolling out to his right and then either running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or having to throw the ball away.
 
I agree, BamaMoon. Harris should be getting 15-20 carries a game. Scarbrough should be getting 10-15 carries a game. Jacobs should get the ball 5-10 times a game, either at RB or as a slot receiver. Obviously, if one of these guys gets "hot" then you feed him the ball and the others get less carries. Hurts, on the other hand, should get 2-3 designed QB runs. His only other runs should be if the pocket breaks down and he's forced to scramble.
 
I didn't watch the game.

Haven't been commenting on game stuff because of that but this discussion is different and spans the entirety of the last 2 seasons and not just 1 game.

Jalen should hang in the pocket longer - but lets be real - his scrambles, throughout the course of a season, are a net gain rather than a loss in regards to how it makes the O-line look.

I'm not talking about his ability to read the field from the pocket or stay in long enough to hit a receiver or his maddening habit of rolling out to his right and then either running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or having to throw the ball away.
Only with the uneducated masses.
 
I didn't watch the game.

Haven't been commenting on game stuff because of that but this discussion is different and spans the entirety of the last 2 seasons and not just 1 game.

Jalen should hang in the pocket longer - but lets be real - his scrambles, throughout the course of a season, are a net gain rather than a loss in regards to how it makes the O-line look.

I'm not talking about his ability to read the field from the pocket or stay in long enough to hit a receiver or his maddening habit of rolling out to his right and then either running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or having to throw the ball away.

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Do the scrambles cause a net gain OR are they maddening???

Sure, when he scrambles for a big gain or TD it's good. But How many times does he scramble for nothing or a negative play when there's a running back that should have been given the ball or a receiver who was open but didn't get the ball.
 
You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Do the scrambles cause a net gain OR are they maddening???

Sure, when he scrambles for a big gain or TD it's good. But How many times does he scramble for nothing or a negative play when there's a running back that should have been given the ball or a receiver who was open but didn't get the ball.
Yep - that is the key. Against weaker teams, every time he breaks the pocket he is a threat to pick up big yardage with his legs. Against your tougher opponents, that is not happening. So, as soon as he leaves the pocket against a tough team, it is a win for the defense. And if they get him to move left, the play is over. Jalen cannot pass when scrambling left. I mean, he is terrible at it - one of the worst that I have ever seen.

A smart defense does what Auburn did - get him out of the pocket ASAP. A smarter defense would flush him to his left on every play.
 
You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Do the scrambles cause a net gain OR are they maddening???

Sure, when he scrambles for a big gain or TD it's good. But How many times does he scramble for nothing or a negative play when there's a running back that should have been given the ball or a receiver who was open but didn't get the ball.



To bad there is no way to see how a play unfolds before it does. Then we would always know exactly which play to call. The facts remain, when he scrambles it may go good or bad, and until someone can see the future, there is no way to know in advance when it will or will not work. It is easy after a play fails to ay we should have done something else. The trick is running a play and calling said play before you know how it will go. HMMMMMMMMM maybe that is why so few reach Sabans level. If it was easy, everyone would do it. As great as aubs played us, they lost 2 games this year. Guess no one has that crystal ball.
 
To bad there is no way to see how a play unfolds before it does. Then we would always know exactly which play to call. The facts remain, when he scrambles it may go good or bad, and until someone can see the future, there is no way to know in advance when it will or will not work. It is easy after a play fails to ay we should have done something else. The trick is running a play and calling said play before you know how it will go. HMMMMMMMMM maybe that is why so few reach Sabans level. If it was easy, everyone would do it. As great as aubs played us, they lost 2 games this year. Guess no one has that crystal ball.
You don't have to be able to see the future to see replays. How many times this season has a replay shown a wide open receiver that Jalen never looked at because he left the pocket too soon? Countless.
 
Just look at how Stidham was used. Stidham has a good arm, he can throw the ball downfield, but he was doing screens and underneath the coverage passes and it was working! That's the part that irritates me. I know Hurts needs to improve in some areas, but I have no idea why they handcuff him by taking away things he actually did well last year.

Anyway, I think we'll have a QB competition in the spring. But first, I think they need to sit down and stop trying to run an NFL offense, and come up with something that works in college with the guys they have on the field.

Thing is, Jalen threw the screens well last year, and we kept those in the playbook. In fact, we threw several WR screens against AU and they still work reasonably well, but the big reason those were so great in 2016 was A Stewart and the toughness he played with at WR. He destroyed DBs both as a blocker and when he had the ball.

The only thing we really took out from a passing standpoint was the jet sweep since those got marked as passing yards even though it's really a run. We replaced those with a lot more passing to the RBs though. in 2016 the RBs had less than 200 yards receiving on the season and in 2017 so far they're at 350 official receiving yards, and there have been a ton of plays where the pass was backward that then go down as a run even though it's really not.

in 2016 Jalen didn't throw underneath (seams, short slants, crosses, etc) at all, to the point that Clemson didn't even defend against it. From what we have seen in 2017 he's only done it a few times, mostly when games are basically already won. AU gambled we would play the same way and defended us almost exactly like Clemson did in 16 with a few exceptions based on down/distance and formation. As someone else said, they planned to stop #2 and #3. Their gamble worked.

That leads me to this theory: Jalen doesn't/can't consistently execute that part (underneath) of the passing game.

Here's why: that's THREE offensive coordinators who aren't calling the plays that we fans think should work (seams, slants, crosses) with Jalen at the helm. I know they are better at Xs and Os than we are, AND that they know those plays would help us tremendously if we execute them. Forcing a defense to have to defend those routes and in the short and intermediate middle opens up the running game, slows down the pass rush and all sorts of good stuff. I have to guess then that they've tried to execute those plays in practice (backed up by the fact that we did see it a couple of times this year) but that they don't consistently like what they see when we run those in practice. Otherwise, why would three different play callers not call those plays?

I understand your point though - could Jalen be a better version of Blake Sims if we ran the right offense? That's possible, but as someone else (maybe you) said, Sims had a much better deep ball than Jalen has shown so far. Jalen probably has him on pure arm strength so can get the ball there, but Sims has him on accuracy and touch. IMO, Sims also had a much quicker release than Jalen which really helped on the WR screens because the defense didn't have quite as much time to react. All that said, Jalen came to Bama because we told him we'd develop him as a pro-style QB, not because he wanted to continue down the path as a dual-threat QB. 2016 was an unplanned deviation in our scheme because none of the other guys could win the job, and Jalen wasn't going to be able to be effective at being a pro-style QB as a true freshman after being a DT QB his entire career. Also, most of the rest of the team was recruited with the goal of being more pro-style. That is what we are built for - except potentially Jalen. With that in mind, it seems we have to commit to being pro-style multiple instead of zone-read and RPO. Then we give both Jalen and Tua a shot to see who wins. Honestly not sure who'd win. Tua has certainly shown flashes of ability but we don't really know how he'd perform under pressure. Jalen has grown a lot, but still seems to have a couple big areas that would need to improve.
 
Looking back. Even before Hurt's was selected more or less permanent starter Blake Barnett left then two other quarterbacks transferred leaving an entering freshman, albeit a highly touted one, as the back up quarterback. Looking forward presents a tremendous conundrum for the coaching staff. Will a young man with reasonable aspirations for the NFL remain at Alabama for two more years without starting at QB. It is difficult to imagine him doing that. Looking at Hurt's future one would conclude that him being a high draft pick as a QB in the NFL is not a high probability. He doesn't have the physical attributes of a Deshaun Watson for example. Jalen is an outstanding young man and leader but where does he go from here and where does Bama go with all the outstanding receivers and running backs and no offensive game plan to spread the field. If that doesn't change then Bama will be back to attempting to build an all NFL defense just to stay in games against teams like Auburn.
 
I have come to feel that Jalen Hurts is basically Nick Marshall with a higher IQ and the ability to form complete sentences. I'm not knocking him but I think our staff needs to understand how to coach and call games with him.

Auburn would work that tailback handoff on inside/outside zone and coached Marshall to err on the side of the give unless the read was a dead giveaway for the keep. We have given Hurts a bit too much latitude on the give/keep choice at times. We've had several examples in important games this season where he made the wrong choice - often on the keep but sometimes rarely on the give - where the give read would've been a massive run for the tailback. His read and decision making on the option must improve and maybe even be dictated to him before the play so that it looks like a read but was a 100% give/keep. Second, this is a 75% run offense with Hurts. Our offense with Hurts needs to look almost like something GT runs but out of the shotgun. He's a strong deep passer, make teams commit to the run then burn them. Stop trying to sling it around with Hurts, commit to the run and pass when the opportunity arrives.

If we will not commit to that offense then we need to consider Tua in 2018 because I don't think we are going to make Hurts into a pro passer. We can make him into an infuriating modern option quarterback though.
 
Here's the issue I have.

McElroy lost 3 games as a starter, AJ McCaron lost 4 games as a starter. Blake Sims lost 2 games as a starter. The only starting quarterback at Alabama with a better winning percentage than Jalen Hurts is Jacob Coker. I think you're right in that the jury is still out, but I also think the raw emotion of the Auburn loss has clouded judgment somewhat.

As far as I can recall, the most any of those other quarterbacks had to do was deal with 2 playcallers. Hurts had to do with 3 different ones. I do think some soul searching might be warranted in terms of offensive identity, but I'm not ready to consider the tool, in this case a dual threat quarterback, the problem.

Very true.

I haven't heard that anywhere, do you have any links or social media quotes? I'd be very surprised if the most composed quarterback Alabama has had is actually losing the locker room. We can question his ability in the pocket, but I can't imagine a better guy in the locker room. Remember we're still just one game removed from Hurts playing a great game against a fantastic pass defense and literally saving the game with his change of a play. Aside from perhaps a couple receivers not named Ridley, it's hard for me to imagine those guys are going to turn on him after one loss. Fans? Yes, players? Why?

Ridley certainly could be frustrated. Observe his body language. The lack of passing to other receivers also leads to him being constantly doubled, so it affects him.

I could not possible comment on the locker room, but the locker room is not separate from the field
 
Plenty of references on Tidefans that "hint" at what I said. In addition, I've been told something else and I have no reason to doubt what I've been told. But I can't give specifics.

But even without that, other things have been said right here by mods and others have read between the lines about the attitude of the players.

I agree. Even Saban, in his post game presser, was saying how he was proud of the team but then implied the team didn't have good attitude after the first drive of the second half. It caught my attention. There are more than a few hints.
 
Yeah, which is why I haven't carried that water. I only talk about what we know - there are players that want more touches. Outside of that, it is fair to speculate about the possibility that there might have been issues like complacency that led up to the Auburn loss as long as we agree that it is just speculation and no one tries to put it out there as fact.

Frankly, this comes down to fans trying to figure out what happened, and hoping that it won't carry over. All we can do is guess and talk.

This has continued nonstop on this board for three day straight.
 
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