QB Competition 2018

[BamaInBham]

The saying "the QB gets too much credit when the team wins and gets too much criticism when the team loses". The comeback victory over MSU was "Hurts legend continues to grow" and we know what some are saying now after the Barn game. I am sure Jalen can not wait to play the next game.

IMO, this is not just a reaction to one game, though in this case, the game certainly exacerbated the issue. It's been building for a while. The primary concerns are Jalen's behavior in the pocket and quickness in deciding what to do and pulling the trigger on passes, etc. There is concern that it's not just how his performance directly affects a game, but that the skilled personnel are not being used properly and its affect on them. We've seen evidence of frustration in games from multiple players. Who knows to what degree this is meaningful. Some have hinted at a more general problem. I know nothing about that. There is also concern about the recruiting of skill position players: WRs, RBs, TEs, QBs. Some of these discussions are mixed in with the issue of offensive philosophy and the direction in which Bama is headed. Of course this is on the coaches not Jalen.

There are other offensive issues related to coaching as well, though while the play calling could always be better, IMO, it is not as bad as some suggest. And though the OL could pass block better, it too is not as bad as some suggest. There is plenty of blame to go around and as Jalen is part of the success, he is part of any failure.

I think one thing this last game did was remove the aura of invincibility from Jalen. He had lost only one game, and in it he had led the O for a game winning drive and never got the ball back. That having been removed, it has now become easier to look more critically at his performance. Not that the loss was on him, but it was a loss where he and the offensive team did not play well. I have been a very big supporter and defender, though lately with increasing reservations, the last game pushed me over the edge. Not that he should be ditched, but stating plainly what seems to be true about his passing. His passing and the prospects of improvement may not be good enough. The question is offensive philosophy and whether the alternative is any better or whether he can improve enough.

However things turn out, one thing most can agree on, is that he deserves to be treated with great respect, not only because he is an Alabama player, but because of his performance and conduct to this point in his career. He has been outstanding. Of course, this goes even more for Coach Saban. He deserves the undying appreciation from every Bama fan for raising this program from the dead to heights it nor anyone else has ever reached. Though he's certainly not above criticism, he always deserves the benefit of the doubt; and even if it is obvious he made a mistake, the highly respectful manner in which any criticism is presented is very important. All would agree that he deserves it.
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[Saban4Ever]

IMO, this is not just a reaction to one game, though in this case, the game certainly exacerbated the issue. It's been building for a while. The primary concerns are Jalen's behavior in the pocket and quickness in deciding what to do and pulling the trigger on passes, etc. There is concern that it's not just how his performance directly affects a game, but that the skilled personnel are not being used properly and its affect on them. We've seen evidence of frustration in games from multiple players. Who knows to what degree this is meaningful. Some have hinted at a more general problem. I know nothing about that. There is also concern about the recruiting of skill position players: WRs, RBs, TEs, QBs. Some of these discussions are mixed in with the issue of offensive philosophy and the direction in which Bama is headed. Of course this is on the coaches not Jalen.

There are other offensive issues related to coaching as well, though while the play calling could always be better, IMO, it is not as bad as some suggest. And though the OL could pass block better, it too is not as bad as some suggest. There is plenty of blame to go around and as Jalen is part of the success, he is part of any failure.

I think one thing this last game did was remove the aura of invincibility from Jalen. He had lost only one game, and in it he had led the O for a game winning drive and never got the ball back. That having been removed, it has now become easier to look more critically at his performance. Not that the loss was on him, but it was a loss where he and the offensive team did not play well. I have been a very big supporter and defender, though lately with increasing reservations, the last game pushed me over the edge. Not that he should be ditched, but stating plainly what seems to be true about his passing. His passing and the prospects of improvement may not be good enough. The question is offensive philosophy and whether the alternative is any better or whether he can improve enough.

However things turn out, one thing most can agree on, is that he deserves to be treated with great respect, not only because he is an Alabama player, but because of his performance and conduct to this point in his career. He has been outstanding. Of course, this goes even more for Coach Saban. He deserves the undying appreciation from every Bama fan for raising this program from the dead to heights it nor anyone else has ever reached. Though he's certainly not above criticism, he always deserves the benefit of the doubt; and even if it is obvious he made a mistake, the highly respectful manner in which any criticism is presented is very important. All would agree that he deserves it.
​

Great post. I hope things can start to get resolved for our next game but we won’t see it completely until next season.

I’m watching USC v Stanford game now, and all I can think about is Bama. Hope we can get in the top 4 to hopefully prove the haters wrong. That includes 2 people in the past 2 days who have said something to me about the game, even though I never say things to them when their teams lose.

 

[day-day]

Seems like if a QB only looks at one receiver and only throws if he's wide open and runs if not then the QB rating would look really good as long as most of the throws are on target. If Hurts tends towards this more than towards going through progressions, throwing more difficult passes and throwing out of bounds to avoid sacks then his statistics will look good.

 

[editder]

We are going to take a step back next year. Our defense is getting decimated and we are losing our best WR and top 2 RBs. We are going to have to outscore everyone to have a chance at a playoff run next year. I don’t care who the QB is, I will pull for whoever gives us the best chance to win.

We have some good young receivers and RBs coming back, though, and most of the OL should be returning. I agree that there will be some major holes on defense.

 

[westide]

We have some good young receivers and RBs coming back, though, and most of the OL should be returning. I agree that there will be some major holes on defense.

We will probably sign some JC players to come in and help out immediately.

 

[bigjue24]

We have some good young receivers and RBs coming back, though, and most of the OL should be returning. I agree that there will be some major holes on defense.

I'm not convinced the defense will take a big step back. I've been hearing that for years and every year it's one top five defense after another. We had a lot of young talent that got experience. I'll think the defense will be fine. Especially when you look at the schedule next year. If Jackson comes out as expected it should be a cake walk to start the year.

 

[RT27]

We have some good young receivers and RBs coming back, though, and most of the OL should be returning. I agree that there will be some major holes on defense.

Losing the best WR might help, now we can scan between many WR's and not lock in on one. I loved Julio, but it got to the point that he was locked on for almost all passes. Many others were open but they kept waiting to see if Julio would get open. Some times when you have a go to guy, you tend to always go to him when it gets tough. We have capable guys, maybe next year we use them more and spread the ball around more. That could be good as the more guys who get passes, the harder it is for a defense to lock down one guy and cripple the pass game.

 

[LA4Bama]

I can't think of anything being said for most of the year in regards to Jalen Hurts that really had anything to do with why Alabama lost the game. I've been looking into some stats and the conclusion I've reached is that the problem (and there is one) is actually that Hurts does too much, not that he can't do enough. I had some concerns I voiced here a while ago, about wanting him to run less and things like that, but it wasn't until I really looked at some stats and saw what others had to say that the problem became more obvious. The older complaints I've generally been seeing is that Alabama needs more from the position. The fact is they need less.

Your first sentence is so ridiculous I don't even know what to say.

 

[KrAzY3]

Your first sentence is so ridiculous I don't even know what to say.

Alabama didn't lose because of Hurts inabilities, they lost because Hurts did too much. You get that, or you don't. But, to reiterate, the solution is not a quarterback that does more, the solution is a quarterback that does less. The common refrain was that Hurts can't, Alabama needs a quarterback that can. What Alabama needs is to not allow any quarterback to become too big a part of the offense.

There is a position that is crucial to Alabama's success, that needs to be at an elite level for Alabama to win, and that position is running back.

 

[drwho]

Alabama didn't lose because of Hurts inabilities...

It could be argued that his inability to make better decisions is the problem.

 

[KrAzY3]

It could be argued that his inability to make better decisions is the problem.

I'm not going to argue with that actually. It is a valid point. Though, without knowing the exact playcalling I can't fully judge. But clearly his hanging onto the ball too much and too often has to be attributed to some degree to his decision making. On the other hand, the fact that he has the capacity to make so many plays is part of the issue, and I was speaking more in the sense of actual physical limitations.

To avoid being so cryptic, I'll elaborate a bit because once I really delved into this it started to make a lot of sense. In three of Alabama's last four championships, the running backs actually ran for as many or more TDs than the quarterback! If you average them out, it's actually an almost perfect split. Of the four best statistical seasons that Saban's Alabama quarterbacks had, three of those resulted in multiple loss seasons. Yet, the four worst seasons included an undefeated season and a one loss season.

 

[BamaInBham]

I'm not going to argue with that actually. It is a valid point. Though, without knowing the exact playcalling I can't fully judge. But clearly his hanging onto the ball too much and too often has to be attributed to some degree to his decision making. On the other hand, the fact that he has the capacity to make so many plays is part of the issue, and I was speaking more in the sense of actual physical limitations.

To avoid being so cryptic, I'll elaborate a bit because once I really delved into this it started to make a lot of sense. In three of Alabama's last four championships, the running backs actually ran for as many or more TDs than the quarterback! If you average them out, it's actually an almost perfect split. Of the four best statistical seasons that Saban's Alabama quarterbacks had, three of those resulted in multiple loss seasons. Yet, the four worst seasons included an undefeated season and a one loss season.

Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but Jalen doesn't do enough in the passing game: his pocket patience and presence are lacking, his ability to make quick decisions and actions is lacking, his decision making on RPOs is lacking. So, he does need to do more in regard to the passing game and RPOs. At the same time I get what you are saying as far as running too much, but some of that is on him. Though I guess one could say the coaches should take that out of his hands. But he definitely doesn't pass too much. I had stated much of this in an earlier response to this issue.

If by your comment, "best statistical seasons that Saban's Alabama quarterbacks had", you are including passing stats, this is often true, not because the QB was voluntarily asked to do too much, but because the team was weaker (either defense and/or running game) than other years and had to score more, hence pass more. During Scott Hunter's career, Bama was in decline but Scott set many passing records. The '69 AU game which Bama lost 49-28, though much closer than that, Scott set the single game passing record that still stands to this day - somewhere around 480 yards. It was because Bama had to pass, partly because the running game was not as good as usual and mostly because Bama was playing catchup after the 2nd qtr. This was typical of that period. That is often true of programs, especially power programs like Alabama. But it is almost always better to have a better QB. The only caveat is that a team can be tempted to lose focus on what it does best. E.g., the OL focuses on the run less and pass more, etc. Bama could ask Jalen to run less, which would be a good idea, but what it most needs from him is to ratchet up his passing game. Bama's offensive record against good defenses, with a couple of exceptions, has almost become dismal, primarily because of the passing game.

 

[B1GTide]

Alabama didn't lose because of Hurts inabilities, they lost because Hurts did too much.

Did Jalen trust himself too much and his teammates not enough? Absolutely. He didn't trust his o-line to pass protect, so he left the pocket when he should have stood in there. He didn't trust his RBs enough, so he made poor decisions on RPO plays, keeping it when he should have handed it off. So, he did take on too much of the the burden, but he didn't do anything with it.

So, no, he didn't do too much. Maybe it would be fair that he tried to do too much, but he tried and failed. Because he failed, he was a big part of the reason that you lost.

 

[GrayTide]

Without stating the obvious; CNS's philosophy has been and probably continues to be put the game in the hands of the defense and special teams and have a QB that does not make mistakes, run the ball and stop the run.

Really a pretty simple philosophy until the HUNH style of play forced him to adjust his thinking. The defensive change worked well until this year when early NFL departures and injuries made the defense less effective. This really put the pressure on the offense to produce clock consuming, sustained drives in order to give a beleaguered defense time to rest and regroup. This worked well until we got into the home stretch of our schedule. The offense could not sustain drives, could not convert 3rd downs and for whatever reason abandoned the run game. The defense simply could not hold up.

Now it has been decided that the offense regressed because our QB took it upon himself to try to do too much which in turn led his teammates' and coach's frustration with his performance. This sounds plausible, and if true, what will the coaching staff do? Does the QB understand this or is he simply not a team player? Is it a simple fix or has it gone beyond repair with this QB. This off season should be quite interesting to say the least. My prediction is that whether it is addressed or not we won't know until the Louisville game next year. Damn I'm tired.

 

[Saban4Ever]

Without stating the obvious; CNS's philosophy has been and probably continues to be put the game in the hands of the defense and special teams and have a QB that does not make mistakes, run the ball and stop the run.

Really a pretty simple philosophy until the HUNH style of play forced him to adjust his thinking. The defensive change worked well until this year when early NFL departures and injuries made the defense less effective. This really put the pressure on the offense to produce clock consuming, sustained drives in order to give a beleaguered defense time to rest and regroup. This worked well until we got into the home stretch of our schedule. The offense could not sustain drives, could not convert 3rd downs and for whatever reason abandoned the run game. The defense simply could not hold up.

Now it has been decided that the offense regressed because our QB took it upon himself to try to do too much which in turn led his teammates' and coach's frustration with his performance. This sounds plausible, and if true, what will the coaching staff do? Does the QB understand this or is he simply not a team player? Is it a simple fix or has it gone beyond repair with this QB. This off season should be quite interesting to say the least. My prediction is that whether it is addressed or not we won't know until the Louisville game next year. Damn I'm tired.

Agree.

I love Jalen and what he has done for the team. It would be great, though, to have a QB in the game who can throw anywhere on the field fairly consistently (no matter what type of offense). Ex: Sam Darnold, Jarrett Stidham, etc. We need a QB who can win us games with his arm first, then his legs. Hopefully Jalen will improve more in the offseason. If not, then give Tua a chance. I hope we are recruiting another pro style QB for the future in this cycle because I am not sure what Mac Jones can do. I would still love for Trevor Lawrence to switch his commitment from Clemson to Bama.

On another note, I am curious ... what does Jalen's dad think of Jalen's progression and the coaches on offense?

 

[drwho]

Without stating the obvious; CNS's philosophy has been and probably continues to be put the game in the hands of the defense and special teams and have a QB that does not make mistakes, run the ball and stop the run.

Which is all the more frustrating when you have the horses that we do in the backfield.

 

[RammerJammer14]

On another note, I am curious ... what does Jalen's dad think of Jalen's progression and the coaches on offense?

Who cares? THIS IS DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL! GO PLAY INTRAMURALS, BROTHER!

 

[KrAzY3]

There's only been one exception to the rule. 2012. That year there was both exceptional quarterback and running back play and it's a bit of an aberration.

Just look at these quarter back ratings (remember these are based on averages so merely throwing more won't gain a better rating, also Hurts actually trended towards this group this year):
167.2 AJ McCarron Redshirt Senior
169.0 Greg McElroy Redshirt Senior
157.9 Blake Sims Redshirt Senior

Now, look at these:
147.3 AJ McCarron Redshirt Sophomore National Championship
147.0 Jacob Coker Redshirt Senior National Championship
140.5 Greg McElroy Redshirt Junior National Championship

The first list is from multiple loss seasons, the second from championship seasons.

I know it's counter-intuitive, the gut instinct is to go oh no you need better quarterback play to win! Eh, not so much. First, let's consider this. Obviously AJ and Greg got better. So it wasn't like their numbers improved purely because they had to. The passing stats got better because Greg and AJ got better, but what was a side effect of their getting better? They become bigger parts of the offense, which wasn't really a good thing.

So, what gives? Shouldn't you want a quarterback that is capable of doing more? Well, first there is a cut-off line, a point in which QB play simply isn't good enough to win. That's fairly low though actually, if the quarterback can make some fairly basic throws and reads they are capable of winning at Alabama. What tends to happen though is as a quarterback gets better in terms of what he can do, the team defers less to the running backs. That's not a good thing. Now, take a look at what the running backs did on the Saban Alabama championship years:
2009 Mark Ingram 1658 6.1 17 (career year)
2011 Trent Richardson 1679 5.9 21 (career year)
2012 Eddie Lacy 1322 6.5 17 (career year)
2015 Derrick Henry 2219 5.6 29 (career year)

There you see a pretty direct correlation between the success of the running back and the success of the team. So basically as soon as the team gets away from relying on the running back as the catalyst for the offense, there's a problem. Alabama actually has more success when their quarterbacks are limited, in every sense of the word. That isn't to say that you want bad quarterback play, obviously you don't, but it seems almost impossible to avoid limiting the quarterback once they are capable of doing more.

 

[drwho]

There you see a pretty direct correlation between the success of the running back and the success of the team. So basically as soon as the team gets away from relying on the running back as the catalyst for the offense, there's a problem. Alabama actually has more success when their quarterbacks are limited, in every sense of the word. That isn't to say that you want bad quarterback play, obviously you don't, but it seems almost impossible to avoid limiting the quarterback once they are capable of doing more.

And there's no way we can have a RB be the catalyst for our offense with Jalen at QB.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

Conveniently missing from those comparisons is.....

175.3 AJ McCarron Redshirt Junior National Championship

That was his Best season and it was also in a year where the running game wasn't really dominant until the last few games where Lacy got healthy and turned it on late.

AJ absolutely Daggered UGA right through the heart with a GW TD pass and absolutely eviscerated ND. But we DID have a strong running game by that point too. But that was a Balanced attack that won a NC. We could beat teams on the ground AND through the air.

The winning recipe is BALANCE. You have to be able to Throw and Run now.

Also the reason we didn't win a NC in 2013 had nothing to do with AJ being relied on more......it had to do with Nuss calling a garbage game against AU.

We might not have even been in contention if not for AJ out-dueling Manziel in a 49-42 shootout throwing for 334 yards and 4 TD's.

There is no one right way to win. We've been fortunate enough to win NC's relying on a great Defense and great Running game more times than not.....but CFB has changed a lot in 5 years.

You HAVE to have a QB that can Sling it when needed now. Do you envision us beating someone 49-42 shootout style right now?? That's what it will take against Oklahoma, Clemson, or Auburn.

Right now the only guy on the team that can Sling it and thrive in that type of game is riding the pine.



EDIT:

Plus you also have to remember that in 2009 we won the SECCG because McElroy straight up beat FLA through the Air. He outplayed Tebow and was the MVP.

Then in 2011 AJ did the same thing to LSU in the NCG rematch.

Both of those gameplans were constructed around the QB making plays though the Air.

Then in 2015 against Mich St and Clemson Coker has two Monster games through the Air throwing for over 600 yards and 4 TD's.

In Clutch Post Season time your QB has to play his best ball......not his worst.