QB Competition 2018

[tusks_n_raider]

If I ever die and get reincarnated, I want to come back as Alabama's back-up QB. He is always awesome and can do no wrong.

I hope I haven't come off that way at any point. I have been one of Jalen's biggest supporters and I still am. He's one of my favorite players and I don't think all of our struggles are solely his fault.

I also don't think Tua is impervious to making a mistake. I've seen him throw 1 pick 6 and almost two more by just completely not seeing guys squatting underneath in zone coverage.

But I've also seen him stand in the pocket and take one under the chin. I've seen him just absolutely rip the ball and throw guys open right on the money.....play after play after play. There isn't a throw he can't make right now. His mechanics are impeccable. Any time Danielson has seen him play it's sounded like he's needed a cold shower. The kid is a once in a lifetime passing QB. He's an NFL Round 1-2 pick. I don't see why we have to pretend we don't see it too.

Sometimes starting players in any sport can start doing things out of character and get in a slump or a funk......sometimes they can even take on too much responsibility and not trust their teammates and press and try to be the 'Star'.

When those times come you definitely want to stick with them 1st and try working on getting things back on track. But if they keep happening to the detriment of the whole team sometimes you gotta give another guy a chance to spark the team while the other guy takes a seat for a bit.

I look at it like an All-Star hitter in Baseball who usually bats over .300 and is a 30 HR hitter on average......who all of a sudden starts trying to jack HR's and keeps striking out to the point he's not hitting HR's and batting .250 or less because of it and leaving runners stranded on base everywhere.

Or you could look at it like basketball when a guy goes all 'Allen Iverson' holding the ball the whole shot clock every possession and jacking up shots right and left instead of dishing it to other open players in the paint for a layup.

That type of thing doesn't make for a healthy team or happy teammates and more than likely turns potential W's into L's.

Can we try to make sure things get turned around and don't get worse? Yes. Should we try to not upset the apple cart if possible? Yes

Should we have 'Plan B' prepared and willing to exercise it if 'Plan A' keeps being ineffective against Top Flight opponents? I think....YES.

 

[BadgerTidefan]

Thanks for the post TnR and putting some things together for what I think is a pretty clear perspective. I support whoever starts, thats my job. I hope Jalen does great, but if he performs poorly, I hope the coaches don't waste much time before putting Tua in. I have a lot of confidence in Tua, don't ask why, maybe the way he carries himself, maybe the quick release and rocket throws, maybe his reading the field. This game is no time to worry about how getting pulled may affect someone. This game is about one thing, whatever it takes to win. I hope the guys come out loose and ready to give it all. Roll Tide!!

It's taken me a LONG time to 'see the light' with regards to last year's Clemson game. I wrongly put most of the blame on the defense.

I think because the mantra was 'It's the GOAT defense....period....no question.' That was a damn bold statement. It was really hard seeing them give up 35 or more points two straight years to the same team after hearing that line over and over.

But I have finally come around to the fact they were put in an impossible situation to suceed by the Offense's lack of efficiency. I was cutting them slack because they did score enough points to win no matter how they scored them. I was also cutting #2 a lot of slack since he made an almost game winning run despite having a pretty bad passing game AND was a TF with a new OC.

I know all of this has been obvious to the majority of you for a while. But it's just really hit me hard the last month of this season. I've defended the starting QB a ton because he HAS made some improvements....but that's been offset by new problems popping up or rather bubbling to the surface.

The overall decision making has been increasingly poor with each team with play with a pulse. The not giving it off the RB, the lack of pocket awareness, not pulling the trigger on passing plays, freelancing plays and taking bad sacks, not throwing the ball away, and the most egregious error being completely unaware of the chains and LOS and stepping OOB and taking a LOSS of yardage. It just been inexplicably bad decisions.

I really got soured from that Miss St game....post game. The whole 'Hero Complex' of a halftime speech and 'driving the bus' and 'you can come or get left behind'. Yeah I'm sure that went over well with the 5 OL blocking, the WR's getting open all game basically just doing cardio, and the RB's getting carries taken away from them.

Then it got worse from there with the whole 'I was born for moments like these' comments......and especially when you see the skill players being visibly frustrated.

This isn't the Jalen Hurts show starring Jalen Hurts, Co-Starring Jalen Hurts, Produced and Directed by Jalen Hurts.

It's a TEAM game and everyone has to pull their weight and everyone has an important role. The QB's job is to DISTRIBUTE the ball to the skill players, be AWARE of the situation, and not put the team in precarious spots.

I still love our current starting QB. I do not think he's a lost cause as a QB. I think he can improve with better coaching. I also think he still has limitations right now that we don't have time to fix. I think he has an attitude issue that needs checking as well.

Sometimes it's not the worst thing to sit a guy on the bench to gain some perspective. I also think the guy who's been patiently waiting on the bench is already more polished and capable of beating a D1 defense like Clemson through the Air. If QB1 keeps playing how he's been playing then QB2 deserves a SHOT....a CHANCE to help the TEAM.

They can battle the whole thing out in the off-season no matter what but the time for winning or losing a NC is RIGHT NOW......not next year....NOW.

It would be a major disservice to the rest of the team to keep struggling doing the same things and lose because we are playing the 'let's not bruise someone's ego' game.

 

[JDCrimson]

I think playing almost exclusively from the shotgun has stunted Jalen's development to a degree. There is a lot to be learned and gained from playing under center carrying out play action fakes timely, and reducing the amount of field to see, etc. It has to be quick and crisp in execution. If Jalen practiced this more I think he would find out just how slow he is with his post snap motions.

In watching him last year, comments were made about how smooth he looked back there and I am sitting there thinking he is too slow carrying out the play - too nonchalant. Having played the position a couple of years as a backup (not a very good one at that) I have an idea how quick and crisp play action has to be carried out.

I can only surmise that we don't run short over the middle passing plays much because his timing is not quick enough and he doesn't see his throwing windows. The downfield throws allow him to see over the defense rather than through the defense. But again he is not throwing these passes timely because he is waiting to see the WR open rather than throwing the ball and relying on the WR to go get the ball.

I think the playbook is established on Jalen to make him hold the ball as long as you can, move him a little and to the left same strategy run or pass.

Given the above I'm not sure what you do except takeaway his runs and rely more the RBs. The short passing is not going to materialize in the next few weeks. We better learn to operate a screen game and package to TEs and designed throws to RBs out of the backfield. And I think you have to give Tua some safe plays in the throw game as there is not as much film on him to game plan against.

We also have to stay with running between the tackles even if it's only for 2-3 yds.


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[GrayTide]

A pick is a double crossing route with a bump on a defender in the middle. They're good at them...

After thinking about what I said it occurred to me you were right about the rub or pick play on the LBs plus with all the injuries we had some LBs who lacked game speed experience. I stand corrected.

 

[Saban4Ever]

Everyone on this board has so many good ideas and opinions for the offense. I don' know about all the x and o's but I do know we need to run the ball more with the running backs, have short passes and do some plays not yet seen, and hope that Jalen makes better decisions for the RPO (he does not need to have more runs than our RB's).

I truly hope that Saban and the other coaches have these same ideas and thoughts. Surely they see what is and is not working???? That is what concerns me the most. Are the coaches going to fix it in time for Clemson, or do they really think it is just an execution problem? I guarantee that Dabo knows what our issues are on offense and he will exploit them 100%. This game is on the coaches to do the right thing to help us win. It will be frustrating and sad to me if Damien doesn't get his time to shine.

 

[BamaMoon]

I think we all need to pull back on the anti-Jalen talk. He is our QB that is leading us into the play-off to try to win a NC. You and the others need to get on board with it. Tua is not going to play unless Jalen gets hurt in the play-off. I am going to get behind Jalen and the "team" and hope we win it all which I feel like we can and will do (Vegas agrees). In the great words of Jalen "get on the bus folks".

I fail to understand that if a poster has the opinion that Tua is a more talented passer than Jalen and he says so that it is "anti Jalen talk." I'm starting to believe this phrase has become a "straw man" argument that is deflection from actually considering Tua's abilities OR that he could possibly earn some playing time or overtake Jalen in the future.

In the context of my earlier post there were two videos of Tua and Jalen throwing passes put forth as if they were equal talents. It is my opinion that those two actual plays are no where near equal nor, IMO, is their overall passing abilty. To make a judgement about a specific aspect of a players abilities is what happens on a discussion board. It has nothing to do with Jalen's character, just my personal judgement of his ability to pass the ball.

I ask an honest question. Why is it that if someone has an opinion that Tua is a more talented passer that someone says that's "anti Jalen talk" but if someone says Jalen ought to play because Tua's not ready that no one ever says that's "anti Tua talk?" :conf2:

And one last thing. My earliers comments had nothing to do with which qb might play against Clemson. I don't know who will play, but apparently you do since you state emphatically that "Tua is not going to play unless Jalen gets hurt."

 

[JustNeedMe81]

I acknowledge that Jalen has few things he seriously needs to work on in the offseason, but Tua has to work on few things as well. As far as the playoff, Hurts is my man and I'll support him win or lose. I suspect that Tua will have some kind of role with the team for the playoff and I actually support that as well. There is nothing wrong with having Plan A, Plan B, Plan C and Plan D, in case things goes wrong. We have an opportunity to play for championship and coaches should look at all the options on the table and figure out what's best for the team. Right now, I hope Daboll develops an offense where it is based on Jalen's strengths and get WRs more involved in the offense and we will be okay. I hope Tua find some playing time in the game where we eventually will force the team to make adjustments to where we want them. I really feel like Jalen can do things that lot of people doesn't think he can, and he just need to work on it more. You all have to remember, he had three different OCs in two years. Next year will be first time he had a same OC and that's huge for his development. I look forward to Epic battle in spring, summer and fall between those guys, and because of that, both will get better and improve as a passer.

For now, I expect Hurts to start and finish the game as improved passer. Everyone on here has great points, and all we can do is wait and see what happens in Clemson game.

 

[JustNeedMe81]

Jalen can throw those types of passes if the primary receiver is open. There it looks like the play developed just as it was designed. Ridley was to get open and and he quickly did, so there was no hesitation by Jalen. I don't know what down that was but on 3rd down coverage is usually tight and 3rd down is where Jalen has problems. While Tua has no fear of firing a bullet pass between defenders it seems Jalen is too fearful of throwing a INT and tries to run.

The problem is that he's trying to cut down on Ints and he has done that. He took lot of risks throwing the ball last year. Jalen is more conservative passer who doesn't use the RBs to check down often. Tua likes to take risks... and that doesn't always make the coaches happy. Both have yet to find the balance in safe and risky passes. That's why I posted the video... to show that both can make plays... Jalen has thrown a pass into tight coverages at times...

 

[3rd_and_long]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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[Intl.Aperture]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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There are people on this board who do have interior knowledge of the program who have said there is internal strife because of Jalen taking too much on himself. Being a newer member myself I had to see it happen a few times to know that their information is very reliable and they aren't just making stuff up or harboring an agenda. You'll learn who these people are after hanging around for a while but all of them have said that, while Jalen may not be directly defying the coaches, he's certainly trying to do too much on his own and it's frustrating the locker room which is in turn causing issues for the coaching staff.

 

[mlh]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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Sure, but there's no guarantee that Tua would've thrown 2-3 picks in any of those games. I think it's just as likely that he would've throw 2-3 TDs in those games. How different would they have been IF that was the case? We can play ifs-and-buts all day. BUT there are a lot of people on this thread who seem to believe it's a given that Tua would choke if he started or was inserted when the game wasn't already decided. I've seen nothing to indicate that would be the case.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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Your opinion is duly registered...

 

[JTBama]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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I would take time to read the thread entirely, the mods have given you info about other things going on. There appears to be deeper issues at play. As far as two or three picks..that's hypothetical and didn't happen. No one is putting forth any agenda

 

[3rd_and_long]

There are people on this board who do have interior knowledge of the program who have said there is internal strife because of Jalen taking too much on himself. Being a newer member myself I had to see it happen a few times to know that their information is very reliable and they aren't just making stuff up or harboring an agenda. You'll learn who these people are after hanging around for a while but all of them have said that, while Jalen may not be directly defying the coaches, he's certainly trying to do too much on his own and it's frustrating the locker room which is in turn causing issues for the coaching staff.

Yes I have heard all that as well. That is a lack of senior leadership on the team not specifically a Jalen problem. I have a hard time believing that anyone that goes back and watches tape, slows it down looks at coverages and pressures like I do would say it's all a Jalen problem. Problems like you say are being had now are from a lack of leadership plain and simple. Players don't get their way and they pout. That's definitely not ALABAMA Football. There are bias's among the Alabama football base that have gone back a long time. Looks like they have made there way into the locker room. I say again that's a leadership issue. It would be different if Alabama was a .500 football program and the players wanted a change but we're not. We've lost 2 games with JH. Sounds like we have a LOT bigger issue than QB problems to me if all this is true.


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[westide]

If we have the same anemic passing attack against Clemson that we have displayed against good defenses we will lose. The notion that Jalen is my man win or lose or Tua is my man win or lose is not the proper perspective. Football is a team sport. Bama is my team win or lose. We should play the best players... period. We can give our opinions, but ultimately it will be up to the coaches. I hope they make the right decisions for the team.

 

[CrimsonForce]

Anybody that thinks JH is constantly going against the coaches game after game and taking it upon himself to win and that Saban is just letting that ride obviously has some sort of an agenda. You can go back and watch JH highlights and specifically see when there is time to throw the ball he's not running and making decent passes. We have not modified our passing plays this year to counter the blitz or QB hurries. These slow developing pass plays with a crumbling pocket and he's gonna take off. That needs to be modified. Yes Tua has more confidence in his arm, maybe too much. He has made some bad decisions on where to go with the ball when under pressure go back and watch. The play that stands out to everyone is the Vanderbuilt game when he twirls around and throws the bomb and yea that was awesome and the play where he hits Ruggs vs TN facing a 3 Man front. BUT if Tua was to have thrown 2-3 picks playing LSU or MSU or Auburn everyone would be screaming to pull the RS off of Jones. I'm all for a QB competition in the offseason because complacency is the enemy of championship football. But this throw Tua to the wolves with the state of our current pass pro against top tier defensive lines is not fair to Tua either.


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I don't fully agree with this. There were several times in the iron bowl when JJ or Ridley were running a route with a double move and were wide open. Yes, the pocket was being pushed but in both instances that I'm referring to Jalen had time to stay in the pocket and get the ball off. JJ, in particular, was wide open. Would've been the easiest throw Jalen made all year but he had already pulled the ball down. This probably happens a lot but with the camera angles you get on TV we usually can't see the routes developing downfield. There's never going to be a time vs an elite defense like LSU, AU, Clemson etc. where the pocket is 100% clean. There's always going to be some pressure or push from the defensive line and the QB has to learn to move within the pocket and keep his eyes down field..

 

[JustNeedMe81]

Yes I have heard all that as well. That is a lack of senior leadership on the team not specifically a Jalen problem. I have a hard time believing that anyone that goes back and watches tape, slows it down looks at coverages and pressures like I do would say it's all a Jalen problem. Problems like you say are being had now are from a lack of leadership plain and simple. Players don't get their way and they pout. That's definitely not ALABAMA Football. There are bias's among the Alabama football base that have gone back a long time. Looks like they have made there way into the locker room. I say again that's a leadership issue. It would be different if Alabama was a .500 football program and the players wanted a change but we're not. We've lost 2 games with JH. Sounds like we have a LOT bigger issue than QB problems to me if all this is true.


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Leaders are SDH, Evans, Fitz on Defense. Offense: Ridley, Hurts and Harris. See the issue on Offense?

Mods are right: there are some kind of issues between players because of Jalen taking on too much responsibilities and not knowing when to let it go. But Daboll also should take some of the blame for his playcalling. Wide receivers should take the blame for not going full in on routes running and dropping the passes. I have to side with some of the folks including Mods on their take on offense. I respect your opinion, but I don't think you have a clue of what's really going on behind the scene.

 

[JustNeedMe81]

I don't fully agree with this. There were several times in the iron bowl when JJ or Ridley were running a route with a double move and were wide open. Yes, the pocket was being pushed but in both instances that I'm referring to Jalen had time to stay in the pocket and get the ball off. JJ, in particular, was wide open. Would've been the easiest throw Jalen made all year but he had already pulled the ball down. This probably happens a lot but with the camera angles you get on TV we usually can't see the routes developing downfield. There's never going to be a time vs an elite defense like LSU, AU, Clemson etc. where the pocket is 100% clean. There's always going to be some pressure or push from the defensive line and the QB has to learn to move within the pocket and keep his eyes down field..

I 100 percent agree with this. I had some folks at the game who said the same thing. I heard someone said that coaches told him to do 1 read or 2 reads and he take off and run.

 

[3rd_and_long]

Sure, but there's no guarantee that Tua would've thrown 2-3 picks in any of those games. I think it's just as likely that he would've throw 2-3 TDs in those games. How different would they have been IF that was the case? We can play ifs-and-buts all day. BUT there are a lot of people on this thread who seem to believe it's a given that Tua would choke if he started or was inserted when the game wasn't already decided. I've seen nothing to indicate that would be the case.

All I can go on is what I see. The games Tua played great in are mop up duty against a team we routed. BTW Jalen played well enough in those games as well to get Tua in by the early second half. Go back and watch Tua when the other team can muster up half of a decent pass rush. Other than the Vanderbuilt throw when the game was definitely not on the line and we could afford to take risk you can see how some of his balls would have been suspect against a decent secondary. All I'm saying is this whole debate is not fair to Jalen or Tua at this point of the season. All the responsibility has been put on Jalen and this expectation for a true freshman to be a savior. Tua was told to learn the system and get some game experience in year one. Not go win Bama a NC. Both players are operating on two totally different parameters. Jalen is being told to go out and win the football game, Tua is being told to go out there play and get better. HUGE DIFFERENCE. I don't see how so many Bama fans fail to recognize these truths.


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[JTBama]

All I can go on is what I see. The games Tua played great in are mop up duty against a team we routed. BTW Jalen played well enough in those games as well to get Tua in by the early second half. Go back and watch Tua when the other team can muster up half of a decent pass rush. Other than the Vanderbuilt throw when the game was definitely not on the line and we could afford to take risk you can see how some of his balls would have been suspect against a decent secondary. All I'm saying is this whole debate is not fair to Jalen or Tua. All the responsibility has been put on Jalen and this expectation for a true freshman to be a savior. Tua was told to learn the system and get some game experience in year one. Not go win Bama a NC. Both players are operating on two totally different parameters.


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I don't think so. I think you're assuming Jalen has been given too much responsibility vs him taking on too much himself. I don't think Jalen was asked to go win a championship year one. I think CNS rolled the dice early last year vs USC and said this is the route that we are taking. As far as Tua and mop up duty, the game being on the line or not doesn't have an impact on quality throws. Again , the mods (people with inside knowledge) are trying to tell you whats going on behind the scenes.