Russia Invades Ukraine XVI

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TIDE-HSV

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IIRC, those F-16s are from all over NATO, not from here. They've been modified to fit the requirements of the original purchasing country. So, even with basic F-16 training, there's going to be acclimation to different avionics, etc. That's a familiar problem to the Ukrainians, in more than just planes...
 

Bamaro

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On July 31, Bloomberg reported that Ukraine received its first batch of F-16 fighter jets. Later, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis confirmed this information.

According to The Times, this batch includes the first six F-16s delivered to Ukraine from the Netherlands. A few more jets are expected to arrive from Denmark soon, sources told The Times.

The Telegraph learned that Ukrainian pilots have already made their first combat flights in Ukraine on the F-16s. According to the British newspaper, these aircraft have so far been used as additional air defense assets for Ukraine to protect against Russian strikes.
 

Bamaro

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Ukraine sinks russian submarine, destroys S-400 in strike

In the port of Sevastopol, the Russian submarine B-237 "Rostov-on-Don" from the Black Sea Fleet was destroyed. The Ukrainian General Staff stated, "After the hit, the submarine sank on the spot." Despite Russia's earlier announcements of plans to repair this unit, this attack was a precisely planned operation to inflict maximum losses on the enemy.

Earlier this fall, Ukrainian Defense Forces successfully attacked the "Rostov-on-Don" with Storm Shadow cruise missiles. The submarine sustained severe damage to the bow section and the central part of the hull.
 

TIDE-HSV

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This is from late June.
Moscow hoists Soviet flags at Svalbard
Svalbard is Norwegian, but, by treaty, other nations (inclusing Russia) are allowed to have people there.
Not sure how the Norwegian government has reacyted to this. The Norwegians are a remarkably tolerant people.
I never realized how incomplete Norway's sovereignty over Svalbard was. Isn't that where the world's seed bank is located?
 
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Jon

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BREAKING: The Ukrainian Army continues to advance in the Russian Kursk region, breaking through additional defensive lines. In this video, they take 50 Russian soldiers as prisoners of war. It’s the first time in 70+ years that Russia is being invaded

Russia doesn't believe the border with Ukraine to be legit so technically from their perspective they've not been invaded
 

Tidewater

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BREAKING: The Ukrainian Army continues to advance in the Russian Kursk region, breaking through additional defensive lines. In this video, they take 50 Russian soldiers as prisoners of war. It’s the first time in 70+ years that Russia is being invaded

I thought they were Ukrainians getting down on the pavement to do celebratory push-ups on Russian soil.
 

Tidewater

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I never realized how incomplete Norway's sovereignty over Svalbard was. Isn't that where the world's seed bank is located?
The treaty was signed in 1920, so early in the Soviet era.
They have had a few hundred to a few thousand coal minerts on the islands off and on for a while.
Not sure what's going on the hammer and sickle stuff. Thumb in Norway's eye, maybe?
 

JDCrimson

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I think a war between NATO and Russia is inevitable. Russia has used the near-war theater to its advantage with cyberattacks, political infiltration, etc. They cannot be allowed to continue to get away with what they are doing. They are sowing chaos in democratic societies across the world. I do say a neutered Russia makes the world safer by several orders of magnitude.

I dont think China is the military ally Russia may think it is. When the bombs start flying I think China shrinks back. China doesnt want to upset their governing structure with a collapsing demography. An uprising of a billion people is problem for them. They just want sovereign cover to keep stealing from the West.
 

Tidewater

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I have to respectfully disagree. The whole point of the way Russia approaches the West is based on Yevgenii Messner's Subversion War. (Мятеж — имя третьей всемирной)
Get your toes right up the the line, but do not cross it. They may blunder into it, but a conventional war is not their intention. The Russians have their hands full with Ukraine, for Pete's sake. Ukraine. And Ukraine has not even mobilized their young men.
Russia's hybrid warfare employs everything but conventional military forces to achieve their foreign policy objectives (at least in regards to NATO member states..
 

Bodhisattva

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With Russia's declining birth rate, low life span, young Russians fleeing the country if they can, etc. ... What's the next generation of Russian soldiers going to look like? Will they be able to field much of a military? They seem to be intent on cutting the throat of their future.
 
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JDCrimson

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I understand but when does the West get fed up with Russia's hybrid warfare?

I have to respectfully disagree. The whole point of the way Russia approaches the West is based on Yevgenii Messner's Subversion War. (Мятеж — имя третьей всемирной)
Get your toes right up the the line, but do not cross it. They may blunder into it, but a conventional war is not their intention. The Russians have their hands full with Ukraine, for Pete's sake. Ukraine. And Ukraine has not even mobilized their young men.
Russia's hybrid warfare employs everything but conventional military forces to achieve their foreign policy objectives (at least in regards to NATO member states..
 

Its On A Slab

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With Russia's declining birth rate, low life span, young Russians fleeing the country if they can, etc. ... What's the next generation of Russian soldiers going to look like? Will they be able to field much of a military? They seem to be intent on cutting the throat of their future.
If you believe the statistics, they have killed off a substantial number of young men. I just don't see how they can make those recruiting numbers they brag about.

Maybe sending Chechens and North Koreans into the meatgrinder.

A supposedly advanced military whose only tactic in the field is send a bunch of guys into a slaughter.
 
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Tidewater

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I understand but when does the West get fed up with Russia's hybrid warfare?
Not sure. I guess it depends on which technique we are talking about.
Hybrid Warfare is a mixture of several different techniques to achieve Russian foreign policy objectives.
They use criminal elements (to smuggle stuff into targeted countries), to carry out hits they do not want Russian governmental fingerprints on. Smuggling by nature is surreptitious.
They use propaganda to influence Russian (or Russia-friendly) populations in targeted countries. Do you shut down free speech? What happens when the Russians surreptitiously take control of the censors and, instead of stopping Russian propaganda, they are the ones ensuring that only Russian propaganda gets published? Also, ban RT and then the Russians will point out how the West does not live up to its own ideals of freedom of speech.
Economic levers? Why did Europeans buy Russian oil? Because it was the cheapest oil available to them. You can ban that stuff, but when voters get ticked off and vote the government out of office, what lesson do you think the other parties will take from that?
Cyber attacks? How do we know who committed them? How do you arrest those inside Russia or China?
Resistance organizations sponsored by the Russian government? If you outlaw them, they will just go underground and continue their activities. Also, if you outlaw a paintball league that happens to have nothing but ethnic Russians as members (in countries with an ethnic Russian minority like Estonia or Latvia), then get ready for a propaganda campaign about how the government seethes with race-hatred against Russians.

One of the errors that early air power theorists made was to underestimate the response of targeted countries. If you are on your way to destroying Nazi Germany's rail system, you are giving the Nazis a really powerful incentive to get really good at repairing rail damage. November 1944 was the record Allied bomb tonnage month for the entire war, and also the Nazi record tank and aircraft production month.
The same goes for countering hybrid threats. If you stop one technique, the Russians do not just throw up their hands and give up on their pursuit of their foreign policy objectives, they just find another way to pursue the same objective, by other technique. And the Russians are happy to sacrifice a few lower level operatives to achieve their goals. In fact, the recent prisoner swap, we gave back a lot of the Russians intel operatives the West had arrested and convicted. So, really, no harm, no foul. Send an FSB (or criminal) operative to murder a Chechen dissident in Berlin? It's okay, you get him back after a while if you have some Western bargaining chips rotting in a Russian jail.
 

TIDE-HSV

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The treaty was signed in 1920, so early in the Soviet era.
They have had a few hundred to a few thousand coal minerts on the islands off and on for a while.
Not sure what's going on the hammer and sickle stuff. Thumb in Norway's eye, maybe?
Or rogue officers?
 

JDCrimson

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Well, a bunch of that is already happening and over the last decade with the result of fundamentally changing our country for the worse probably permanently. Its been so profound we probably couldnt go to war even if we needed to because the national conscience is so divided. At some point all this marginal warfare has to reach a crescendo. Ukraine saw firsthand what it was doing to their country over the last decade and now they are fighting for their mere survival.

Not sure. I guess it depends on which technique we are talking about.
Hybrid Warfare is a mixture of several different techniques to achieve Russian foreign policy objectives.
They use criminal elements (to smuggle stuff into targeted countries), to carry out hits they do not want Russian governmental fingerprints on. Smuggling by nature is surreptitious.
They use propaganda to influence Russian (or Russia-friendly) populations in targeted countries. Do you shut down free speech? What happens when the Russians surreptitiously take control of the censors and, instead of stopping Russian propaganda, they are the ones ensuring that only Russian propaganda gets published? Also, ban RT and then the Russians will point out how the West does not live up to its own ideals of freedom of speech.
Economic levers? Why did Europeans buy Russian oil? Because it was the cheapest oil available to them. You can ban that stuff, but when voters get ticked off and vote the government out of office, what lesson do you think the other parties will take from that?
Cyber attacks? How do we know who committed them? How do you arrest those inside Russia or China?
Resistance organizations sponsored by the Russian government? If you outlaw them, they will just go underground and continue their activities. Also, if you outlaw a paintball league that happens to have nothing but ethnic Russians as members (in countries with an ethnic Russian minority like Estonia or Latvia), then get ready for a propaganda campaign about how the government seethes with race-hatred against Russians.

One of the errors that early air power theorists made was to underestimate the response of targeted countries. If you are on your way to destroying Nazi Germany's rail system, you are giving the Nazis a really powerful incentive to get really good at repairing rail damage. November 1944 was the record Allied bomb tonnage month for the entire war, and also the Nazi record tank and aircraft production month.
The same goes for countering hybrid threats. If you stop one technique, the Russians do not just throw up their hands and give up on their pursuit of their foreign policy objectives, they just find another way to pursue the same objective, by other technique. And the Russians are happy to sacrifice a few lower level operatives to achieve their goals. In fact, the recent prisoner swap, we gave back a lot of the Russians intel operatives the West had arrested and convicted. So, really, no harm, no foul. Send an FSB (or criminal) operative to murder a Chechen dissident in Berlin? It's okay, you get him back after a while if you have some Western bargaining chips rotting in a Russian jail.
 
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Tidewater

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Well, a bunch of that is already happening and over the last decade with the result of fundamentally changing our country for the worse probably permanently. Its been so profound we probably couldnt go to war even if we needed to because the national conscience is so divided. At some point all this marginal warfare has to reach a crescendo. Ukraine saw firsthand what it was doing to their country over the last decade and now they are fighting for their mere survival.
Most of what I described was historical, just not necessarily in the US. The closer your country is to Russia, the more interested in you Russia is. Russia has alreeady employed most of what I described has already happened somewhere.

The most important thing we in the US can do is to stop acting like our problems will be solved if we can just hate each other a little bit harder.
 
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