Russia Invades Ukraine XVIII

[TIDE-HSV]

I'm talking in total.

I give Trump credit for actually sending some help during his first presidency. I don't recall a lot of hate from the left when Obama refused any military aid after Russia first invaded Ukraine.

But I'm also critical of Trump as he seems to side with Putin most of the time.

That said, I think more than anything he wants the fighting to stop as no matter how much money / weaponry other countries dump into Ukraine it's not going to end well for them if it continues. As I've stated multiple times, without foreign boots on the ground I don't think anyone believes Ukraine can stop Russia, and while I absolutely HATE the idea of the bad guy 'winning', it's either find a way to stop the war now or watch as Russia slowly but surely takes the entire country.

It sucks, but that's the real world sometimes.

I'm not sure that's true. What Russia's taking now is mostly empty ground, not major towns, etc. I don't think Russia has the manpower to take and hold the whole country. The export of 50K North Korean slaves to Russia for construction is very telling...

 

[some_al_fan]

I’ve been hearing (and making) this argument since before Trump won - whether or not a ceasefire will preserve some of Ukraine is unknowable, but we do know Ukraine cannot push the russkies back off their land - the simply do not have the manpower. The war experts I’ve read almost universally agree with this.

So unless you see foreign boots on the ground in Ukraine your options are 1) have a chance at stopping the war, even if it means Ukraine losing the roughly 20% Russia has stolen, or 2) keep fighting and watch Russia slowly but surely take the whole country.

Hopes and wishes don’t matter.

There is no option 1.
If there had been Option 1, then it would’ve happened already.
As I wrote above, giving away 20% of the land to Russia won’t stop Russia from taking over the rest of the country. It will only speed up the process. The Ukrainian army is currently exchanging land for Russia’s dead soldiers. Giving away 20% of land for free to Russia right now will only lead to Russia's rearmament and getting the rest 80% in a few years.

Once you realize that there is no Option 1, then you can make appropriate decisions based on that.

 

[Bazza]

There is no option 1.
If there had been Option 1, then it would’ve happened already.
As I wrote above, giving away 20% of the land to Russia won’t stop Russia from taking over the rest of the country. It will only speed up the process. The Ukrainian army is currently exchanging land for Russia’s dead soldiers. Giving away 20% of land for free to Russia right now will only lead to Russia's rearmament and getting the rest 80% in a few years.

Once you realize that there is no Option 1, then you can make appropriate decisions based on that.

I would love to hear your solution that would return all land to Ukraine and keep Russia from invading Ukraine again that wouldn't involve American boots on the ground or a nuclear war.

 

[some_al_fan]

I would love to hear your solution that would return all land to Ukraine and keep Russia from invading Ukraine again that wouldn't involve American boots on the ground or a nuclear war.

I am not saying that returning all land to Ukraine is realistic at this point.
However, giving the entire Ukraine to Putin (and that is what Trump’s actions are leading to) is not the appropriate path.
My solution:
- Continue to provide Ukraine with weapons, training, and satellite data (no US troops on the ground)
- Ratchet up sanctions and secondary sanctions
- Stop trading with Russia
- Pressure Europeans into increasing their support, as well as severing trading with Russia

 

[crimsonaudio]

There is no option 1.
If there had been Option 1, then it would’ve happened already.
As I wrote above, giving away 20% of the land to Russia won’t stop Russia from taking over the rest of the country. It will only speed up the process. The Ukrainian army is currently exchanging land for Russia’s dead soldiers. Giving away 20% of land for free to Russia right now will only lead to Russia's rearmament and getting the rest 80% in a few years.

Once you realize that there is no Option 1, then you can make appropriate decisions based on that.

Considering we likely never will put US troops on the ground in Ukraine and considering virtually every war expert I’ve read says Ukraine cannot hold up indefinitely, I’m not sure what you think should happen.

What are the ‘appropriate decisions’ that make winning the land back or making Russia decide to stop? Sanctions aren’t going to do it, they have far too many natural resources that many other countries need. What’s the magic answer here that no one else seems to have figured out?

 

[Bazza]

I am not saying that returning all land to Ukraine is realistic at this point.
However, giving the entire Ukraine to Putin (and that is what Trump’s actions are leading to) is not the appropriate path.
My solution:
- Continue to provide Ukraine with weapons, training, and satellite data (no US troops on the ground)
- Ratchet up sanctions and secondary sanctions
- Stop trading with Russia
- Pressure Europeans into increasing their support, as well as severing trading with Russia

First - thanks for your reply and answer.

Seems to me that Trump is already doing all 4 of the items in your list.*

We can disagree with your opinion that Trump's actions are leading to Russia taking over all of Ukraine. Trump is not only VERY unhappy with the continuance of this war - but all war. Something I have always appreciated in this president

Additionally, he has made it very clear he is NOT happy with Putin right now and if Putin doesn't comply with what he is looking for in a settlement - he will take further action against Russia. What that looks like we will have to wait and see.

I don't expect to see B1 bombers heading to Moscow but you know......he did bomb the Iranian nuclear sites after giving them quite a few off ramps. So like I said - we'll see. We have a big stick and a president now who isn't afraid to use it where necessary....without pulling us into a war no one in the country wants.

*I posted a video on this forum back during his first term where he was very critical of European countries buying their oil from Russia. More recently he increased tariffs on India because of their Russian oil purchases.

He's also convinced many members of the UN to increase their defense spending and contributions to the UN defense fund.

And just approved a huge allotment of weapons to Ukraine.

============

I really don't see how we can do any more - and feel we are doing a lot right now. We'll have to see how it plays out. Thanks!

 

[Huckleberry]

First - thanks for your reply and answer.

Seems to me that Trump is already doing all 4 of the items in your list.*

We can disagree with your opinion that Trump's actions are leading to Russia taking over all of Ukraine. Trump is not only VERY unhappy with the continuance of this war - but all war. Something I have always appreciated in this president

Additionally, he has made it very clear he is NOT happy with Putin right now and if Putin doesn't comply with what he is looking for in a settlement - he will take further action against Russia. What that looks like we will have to wait and see.

I don't expect to see B1 bombers heading to Moscow but you know......he did bomb the Iranian nuclear sites after giving them quite a few off ramps. So like I said - we'll see. We have a big stick and a president now who isn't afraid to use it where necessary....without pulling us into a war no one in the country wants.

*I posted a video on this forum back during his first term where he was very critical of European countries buying their oil from Russia. More recently he increased tariffs on India because of their Russian oil purchases.

He's also convinced many members of the UN to increase their defense spending and contributions to the UN defense fund.

And just approved a huge allotment of weapons to Ukraine.

============

I really don't see how we can do any more - and feel we are doing a lot right now. We'll have to see how it plays out. Thanks!

The big stick Trump hasn't played is Ukrainian membership in NATO.

 

[some_al_fan]

First - thanks for your reply and answer.

Seems to me that Trump is already doing all 4 of the items in your list.*

We can disagree with your opinion that Trump's actions are leading to Russia taking over all of Ukraine. Trump is not only VERY unhappy with the continuance of this war - but all war. Something I have always appreciated in this president

Additionally, he has made it very clear he is NOT happy with Putin right now and if Putin doesn't comply with what he is looking for in a settlement - he will take further action against Russia. What that looks like we will have to wait and see.

I don't expect to see B1 bombers heading to Moscow but you know......he did bomb the Iranian nuclear sites after giving them quite a few off ramps. So like I said - we'll see. We have a big stick and a president now who isn't afraid to use it where necessary....without pulling us into a war no one in the country wants.

*I posted a video on this forum back during his first term where he was very critical of European countries buying their oil from Russia. More recently he increased tariffs on India because of their Russian oil purchases.

He's also convinced many members of the UN to increase their defense spending and contributions to the UN defense fund.

And just approved a huge allotment of weapons to Ukraine.

============

I really don't see how we can do any more - and feel we are doing a lot right now. We'll have to see how it plays out. Thanks!

I hope you meant NATO, and not the UN to increase their defense spending (China & Russia are also in the UN)

Trump is not doing all 4. He is doing the exact opposite.
1. Here is our trade graph with Russia:


As you can see, trade has gone up since he has become president, while going down since the beginning of the war.

2. There are $3.86 billion worth of Presidential Drawdown Authority for Ukraine remaining that will expire on Oct 1, 2025.
That is the money that Congress has already authorized to use to send weapons from our existing stockpiles to Ukraine, but Trump has refused to do so.

The only military aid currently being provided to Ukraine comes from contracts signed by Biden Administration or purchased by Europeans.
We have stockpiles of Cold War-era vehicles, designed to fight the Soviets, which are currently stored in Utah / Nevada. The previous administration has sent some of them. Trump has sent none. There is no risk or loss for us to send more vehicles.

Sierra Army Depot (California):

 

[some_al_fan]

Additionally, he has made it very clear he is NOT happy with Putin right now and if Putin doesn't comply with what he is looking for in a settlement - he will take further action against Russia. What that looks like we will have to wait and see.

How long do we need to wait and see what that looks like?
“Waiting and doing nothing” is precisely what Putin wants.

 

[92tide]

How long do we need to wait and see what that looks like?

as long as dear leader says we should wait.

“Waiting and doing nothing” is precisely what Putin wants.

see above

 

[Huckleberry]

 

[Bazza]

I hope you meant NATO, and not the UN to increase their defense spending (China & Russia are also in the UN)

Yes, I meant NATO - thanks!

 

[Bazza]

How long do we need to wait and see what that looks like?
“Waiting and doing nothing” is precisely what Putin wants.

Well you waited 4 years when the last guy was in office.

It's only been 6 months for the new guy.

So I'm OK with it taking a little more time, I guess......

 

[Bazza]

The big stick Trump hasn't played is Ukrainian membership in NATO.

What is that going to do..........other than escalate things?

 

[some_al_fan]

Well you waited 4 years when the last guy was in office.

It's only been 6 months for the new guy.

So I'm OK with it taking a little more time, I guess......

Biden has approved the first batch of weapons for Ukraine 2 days after the war started ( https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-approves-350-million-military-aid-ukraine-2022-02-26/ )

We have not waited four years for it.

 

[Huckleberry]

What is that going to do..........other than escalate things?

Allow Trump to play the big man role he so enjoys. Tell Putin to accept reasonable terms or the situation will drastically change. Stop letting Russia and its demented leader call the shots.

 

[some_al_fan]

***? I hope that it is a fake news that Trump wants to offer access to developing Alaska resources to Putin

Trump to offer Putin minerals for peace

Donald Trump is preparing to offer Vladimir Putin access to rare earth minerals to incentivise him to end the war in Ukraine.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Huckleberry]

***? I hope that it is a fake news that Trump wants to offer access to developing Alaska resources to Putin

Trump to offer Putin minerals for peace

Donald Trump is preparing to offer Vladimir Putin access to rare earth minerals to incentivise him to end the war in Ukraine.

www.yahoo.com

From the article:

Donald Trump is preparing to offer Vladimir Putin access to rare earth minerals to incentivize him to end the war in Ukraine.

The US president will arrive at the much-anticipated meeting with his Russian counterpart on Friday armed with a number of money-making opportunities for Putin.

They will include opening up Alaska’s natural resources to Moscow and lifting some of the American sanctions on Russia’s aviation industry, The Telegraph can reveal.

Proposals include giving Putin access to the rare earth minerals in the Ukrainian territories currently occupied by Russia.

Scott Bessent, the US treasury secretary, is understood to be among administration figures briefing Mr Trump ahead of his meeting with Putin in Anchorage.

Mr Bessent is exploring the economic trade-offs the US can make with Russia in order to expedite a ceasefire agreement.





This can't be true. It just can't. Even the MAGA crew and the Trump apologists can't possibly accept such terms. How could any American support a bending of the knee to Putin?

 

[92tide]

How could any American support a bending of the knee to Putin?

they will say "brilliant gambit sir, you've got him right where you want him"

 

[Bamaro]

Putin is making a fool of trump. Two days before the meeting, Putin is still keeping up the military pressure.