The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse 2?

[Tidewater]

Closed the previous thread.
Here is the new one. Discuss ...

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Pope at Palm Sunday Mass: ‘Jesus does not listen to prayers of those who wage war’ - Vatican News

Pope Leo XIV presides at Mass on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion, and reflects on Jesus as the King of Peace who rejects war and refuses to listen ...

www.vaticannews.va

Pope Leo XIV presides at Mass on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion, and reflects on Jesus as the King of Peace who rejects war and refuses to listen to the prayers of those who wage war.

Pope Leo really kicked the hornets nest with this one. And look, I'm pretty anti-war, myself, but this statement is just a weeee bit strong for my taste. I long for the day when the church finally divorces itself from politics and concentrates on more relevant issues (like cleaning up the hierarchy and focusing on the great commission.) And if you absolutely have to get political, do it for more worthwhile causes, like bringing attention to Christian persecution.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Pope Leo really kicked the hornets nest with this one. And look, I'm pretty anti-war, myself, but this statement is just a weeee bit strong for my taste. I long for the day when the church finally divorces itself from politics and concentrates on more relevant issues (like cleaning up the hierarchy and focusing on the great commission.) And if you absolutely have to get political, do it for more worthwhile causes, like bringing attention to Christian persecution.

It's a moronic statement that is not biblical. Kinda like the idea of the pope in the first place...

Even a satire article is more biblically grounded than the pope:

Pope Leo Explains God Does Not Listen To People Who Wage War So Long As You Don’t Count Moses, David, Joshua, Elijah, Saul, Gideon, Samson, Or Anyone Else In Bible

VATICAN CITY — Pope Leo boldly proclaimed today that God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, so long as you don't count King David, or Joshua, or Gideon, or Samson, or Elijah, or Hezekiah, or any of those other people in the Bible.

babylonbee.com

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Here is an AI summation of Catholic "Just War Doctrine."

Catholic Just War Theory, rooted in teachings from St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, provides a moral framework strictly limiting when military force can be used. It emphasizes that war is a last resort to protect the common good, demanding four strict criteria: lasting/grave damage by an aggressor, last resort, reasonable hope of success, and proportionality.

Core Criteria for a Just War (Catechism #2309):
Just Cause: The damage inflicted by the aggressor must be lasting, grave, and certain.
Last Resort: All other means of putting an end to the conflict must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective.

Proportionality: The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.
Probability of Success: There must be serious prospects of success.
Legitimate Authority: The war must be declared by authorized, legitimate bodies.
Right Intention: The objective must be peace and justice, not retribution or territorial gain.

Key Aspects of Catholic Teaching:
Non-Combatant Immunity: Civilians cannot be deliberately targeted, and actions must adhere to international humanitarian law.
Presumption Against War: The church seeks to avoid war, viewing it as a failure of humanity, and encourages diplomacy and peace-making.
Evaluation: The responsibility to evaluate these conditions lies with those responsible for the common good.
Weapons of Mass Destruction: The use of weapons that cause indiscriminate destruction is condemned.

The Catholic Church teaches that a well-informed conscience is needed to evaluate these conditions, particularly in modern contexts involving weapons of mass destruction, which make meeting the proportionality requirement difficult.

I see nothing here with which I (or any reasonable person) would disagree. And I'm willing to concede that much of what gets reported about various popes is often a misquote, a misunderstanding or just plain wrong. (This happened to Pope Francis a LOT) but this came straight from the Vatican website, so I have to assume the quote is accurate. Leo is still fairly new, but by now he surely understands that every utterance he makes will likely become international news if he isn't careful.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

 

[AWRTR]

Pope at Palm Sunday Mass: ‘Jesus does not listen to prayers of those who wage war’ - Vatican News

Pope Leo XIV presides at Mass on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion, and reflects on Jesus as the King of Peace who rejects war and refuses to listen ...

www.vaticannews.va

Pope Leo really kicked the hornets nest with this one. And look, I'm pretty anti-war, myself, but this statement is just a weeee bit strong for my taste. I long for the day when the church finally divorces itself from politics and concentrates on more relevant issues (like cleaning up the hierarchy and focusing on the great commission.) And if you absolutely have to get political, do it for more worthwhile causes, like bringing attention to Christian persecution.

If you embrace a trinitarian point of view, which I assume the pope would, how can you say this with a straight face. If Jesus is God in your belief system then didn't He order the Israelites to conquer the promised land, and didn't he invoke the plague of the first born in Exodus, and didn't he tell David to conquer the enemies of Israel?

That bit about the ear of the servant that Peter chopped off is so out of context it's not funny. It was Christ's time to die on the cross. He was going willingly. That can't be taken as an example for all times and circumstances.

Here's my favorite, “He revealed the gentle face of God, who always rejects violence,” has this guy read the Book of Revelation? Jesus literally kills an entire army with his words. The birds and animals are told to gather for a feast. What in the sale of indulgences is happening here? I would say flooding the world was pretty violent. I would also say the sacking of Jerusalem by Babylon was pretty violent as well, and it's clear in the Book of Isaiah that God is sending the Babylonians as judgment on Israel. My personal favorite is when Jesus made a whip and then proceeded to run the vendors and moneychangers out of the temple with it. Coming at people with a whip seems kind of violent to me.

Now no one has to believe any of this or that God exists at all, but for a pope to have that little of an understanding of God and what the Bible says He has done and will do is shocking, or he's just a little pansy that's too scared to talk about how the Bible truly speaks about God.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Now no one has to believe any of this or that God exists at all, but for a pope to have that little of an understanding of God and what the Bible says He has done and will do is shocking, or he's just a little pansy that's too scared to talk about how the Bible truly speaks about God.

It's the latter, not the former. The man is highly educated; I'll give him that all day long. The problem is his entire generation. What the Boomers have done, not just to society, but to the church is borderline unforgivable. There are a TON of Catholics walking around who genuinely wish Vatican II had never happened and the longer I observe, the more tempted I am to agree with them.

As a Catholic who follows a ton of Catholic accounts on X, let me assure you that he has been getting called out for this consistently. Will it matter? Probably not, but the church has survived worse popes than Francis and Leo. It has survived worse periods than this silly social-gospel delusion that is taking over everywhere. Everything is cyclical, especially when you're talking about a church as ancient as the Catholic Church.

And honestly, I think I'm starting to see it happen in real time. The younger set are rejecting modernism and embracing more traditional Catholic values. The sheer number of conversions happening as we speak is blowing the doors off some parish churches; they literally can't keep up. These are hopeful signs my friends.