The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse 2?
- Thread starter Tidewater
- Start date
I never thought I'd see the Methodist church up and split in half. But it happened.
Actually, only 24% left the UMC, 25% of congregations. I must admit that some who left - Latham and Asbury - surprised me. Aldersgate staying surprised me mildly, since so few there grew up in the UMC. The ones who left were out of tune with traditional Methodist values. In our case, our little congregation on the mountain, they started drifting away when the present pastor arrived with their adopted biracial child. I have to tell this - our youth pastor is black. He's an associate at, I think, a historic black church. Anyway, the pastor's child sat him down after a Wednesday night dinner, right after he became youth pastor, and said "Dexter, I have something to tell you; I'm black." (She's cafe au lait.) He said "Then, I'm blacker than black." (He's at least five shades darker.) He told this in a sermon and it brought down the house...
Actually, only 24% left the UMC, 25% of congregations. I must admit that some who left - Latham and Asbury - surprised me. Aldersgate staying surprised me mildly, since so few there grew up in the UMC. The ones who left were out of tune with traditional Methodist values. In our case, our little congregation on the mountain, they started drifting away when the present pastor arrived with their adopted biracial child. I have to tell this - our youth pastor is black. He's an associate at, I think, a historic black church. Anyway, the pastor's child sat him down after a Wednesday night dinner, right after he became youth pastor, and said "Dexter, I have something to tell you; I'm black." (She's cafe au lait.) He said "Then, I'm blacker than black." (He's at least five shades darker.) He told this in a sermon and it brought down the house...
We went to a small Cumberland Presbyterian church until I started high school, and then we changed to one of the local Methodist churches for a couple of reasons, including that a bunch of my school friends attended there. Of course, when that church folded, Mom was right back at the Presbyterian church!
I have a bunch of lifelong Methodist friends who were really hurt by the split and how people acted during it. It really brought out some ugliness.
I understand that happened, particularly in larger churches with a lot of property in question. As I said, in our church, it was pretty much assumed the church would stay with the UMC, although one can never be sure, so there was a slow leakage over a period of time. After all, there was a reason the bishop felt safe in sending a pastor with a biracial child to us. It seemed to come down mainly to race, same sex unions and women in ministry. I sat around for 2 hours yesterday. I started to walk down and see if you had a break coming up...
My friend and I were talking yesterday and discussing all the different interpretations denominations have of the same scripture. We asked the question "If getting into heaven required perfect interpretation of scripture, how many would actually enter heaven?" We came to the conclusion that either we (humans) have overly complicated salvation way beyond what God requires, or God is going to have to exercise an enormous amount of grace and mercy for the degree that we've misinterpreted the scriptures over the years.
That's my hope as well. No way I even have the capacity to fully understand and get it all "right". God is going to have to exercise His mercy and grace for my ticket in.
I'm gonna go with the bolded part here. One could make the argument that salvation has been overly complicated, but one can also make the argument that it has also been grossly over-simplified. I lean towards the latter because I believe there is more to salvation than a one-and-done conversion event and little after the fact really matters. This is simply not a reasonable take, IMO. (And gang, I know we tend to get mighty ticklish when conversations like this one sound critical of one's beliefs. That is NOT what I'm doing here.)
Private interpretation of the scriptures is problematic for a variety of reasons, starting with the fact that we can project anything we want into them. Politically-minded people pull this stunt all the time. Not to mention, our individual abilities can vary wildly. I mean, whose opinion means more: a guy with a PhD in theology or a 12 year-old with a learning disorder. Yes, two extremes, but it makes my point. I have seen some wild interpretations of scripture in my day and coincidentally, it always seems to support one's pre-existing beliefs. This is a real problem.
A faith without works is dead... Even our faith is insufficient without receiving salvation.
I believe Father, help me with unbelief...
Its a daily struggle and a daily renewal.
Then there's the shift in meanings of words and downright ignorance of what conditions and events really were back then...
*My in laws are Catholic and we've had this discussion for years, with neither changing the other's mind. LOL! Their belief of salvation is Faith+Works=Salvation with faith and works being independent of each other and the believer has to satisfy BOTH to get into heaven. Whereas my belief is faith alone=salvation and the evidence of genuine faith is works. Yes, my in-laws and I interpret James very differently. LOL! We don't discuss this a lot, because there are times we're both not in the "mood" to hear the other's "wrong views", LOL! So we have to be careful and be in a "loving mood" to discuss it. LOL!
**Once again, this is another area where my in-laws and I disagree. I'm assuming you're meaning allowing the layperson to read and interpret the scripture on their own is problematic, rather than getting their interpretation from their priest. They basically told me my interpretations should be coming from priests and if I read something and my interpretation was different than the priest's, then mine is wrong. Basically, his interpretation is infallible. I tend not to get into much of a discussion with them over this because it can lead to unintended personal attacks on their beliefs and mine. Which is not worth it. We've discussed it enough, so they know my thoughts on the priest and his status of interpreting scripture.
Washington Post gift link
The prayers were in Latin. The women and girls wore veils. And yet, as they knelt and accepted Communion on a blazing prairie summer day, the dozens of faithful Catholics were committing a sin in the eyes of the pope.
Traditionalist Catholics have been coming to this tiny town 90 miles west of Kansas City for more than 40 years, drawn to the teachings of the global Society of St. Pius X that embraces the Latin Mass and rejects other modernist changes of the Catholic Church. Over time, members of SSPX, who favor large families and oppose boys and girls swimming together, have dominated the life of St. Marys, culminating three years ago when the towering Immaculata church opened with its 24-karat gold-plated statue of the Virgin Mary and bells that ring out regularly over the Flint Hills.
Then, on July 2, the Vatican issued an edict that effectively expelled members of the congregation and the other 600,000 worldwide adherents of SSPX from the church. The excommunication of the sect, issued after its leadership in Switzerland improperly consecrated four bishops, made everything happening inside this church since then a violation of Catholic law.
The Vatican says these breakaway Catholics are sinning. Many are defiant.
The newly excommunicated Society of St. Pius X has established an outpost of traditionalism on the Kansas prairie.The prayers were in Latin. The women and girls wore veils. And yet, as they knelt and accepted Communion on a blazing prairie summer day, the dozens of faithful Catholics were committing a sin in the eyes of the pope.
Traditionalist Catholics have been coming to this tiny town 90 miles west of Kansas City for more than 40 years, drawn to the teachings of the global Society of St. Pius X that embraces the Latin Mass and rejects other modernist changes of the Catholic Church. Over time, members of SSPX, who favor large families and oppose boys and girls swimming together, have dominated the life of St. Marys, culminating three years ago when the towering Immaculata church opened with its 24-karat gold-plated statue of the Virgin Mary and bells that ring out regularly over the Flint Hills.
Then, on July 2, the Vatican issued an edict that effectively expelled members of the congregation and the other 600,000 worldwide adherents of SSPX from the church. The excommunication of the sect, issued after its leadership in Switzerland improperly consecrated four bishops, made everything happening inside this church since then a violation of Catholic law.
I'm afraid the rift between the SSPX and the Church has hit the point of no return and this saddens me greatly. I understand where the SSPX is coming from and I have made some of these points myself. Nevertheless, either you accept the authority of the church or you don't and if you don't, it's time to find a new church. It really does come down to that.
I apologize, I didn't realize I was in edit mode of your post. I thought I was responding to your post. My fault.
-Bamabuzzard
-Bamabuzzard
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Exactly. The history of the Church is riven with schisms. They will just need to form their own church and pay for everything they want themselves. The Catholic church has its rules, they broke them, and now they get to do their own thing.
@CrimsonJazz
Yes, my inlaws are cradle Catholics. It's all they've ever known. They've never personally challenged or tested anything they believe. Whereas, I do it all the time and over the years have changed my opinion and thoughts on things that I used to "hard core" believe in. But I never just take a pastor's word for it, without doing some form of study and researching myself.
Yes, my inlaws are cradle Catholics. It's all they've ever known. They've never personally challenged or tested anything they believe. Whereas, I do it all the time and over the years have changed my opinion and thoughts on things that I used to "hard core" believe in. But I never just take a pastor's word for it, without doing some form of study and researching myself.
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