The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I

[CrimsonJazz]

One thing everyone's overlooking. "Christian," in this country, has come to have two distinct and mutually exclusionary meanings...

Makes sense, it seems we do that with everything else in this damn country. We might as well drive a divider into the Christian community as well.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Decisive Christian Vote Carries Trump to Historic Victory, Post-Election Research Shows - Arizona Christian University

RC Staff | November 14, 2024 |From the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University Glendale, AZ (November 14, 2024) —New post-election research shows that Christian support was crucial in Donald Trump’s 2024 landslide victory, showing that Christians made up 72% of the electorate...

www.arizonachristian.edu

Here are some post-election numbers from the people who conducted that poll.

I'm not even sure what to do with that, partly because I think the argument they're making can be considered both self-serving and meaningless at the exact same time.

For starters, the idea that 72% of the electorate is Christian - at least by any meaningful definition of that term - is insanely off base. That's close to 3 out of 4 voters. I doubt you could get numbers that high even if the meaning was reduced to "although I'm an atheist in belief, I'm a Christian in ethics." Plus, there used to be a separation of the electorate into Catholic and Christian - not to get into that age-old argument but to make basic distinctions since Catholics and non-Catholics may have crossover but certainly some varied views on social issues - that showed Catholics leaned more Democratic than most of the straight up Southern evangelical, although they were once more Democratic than Republican, too.

I have no real qualm with the argument (even generically) that Christians went for Trump. I think WAY too much was made of "but 81% of evangelicals went for Trump in 2016" when Romney (a Mormon, mind you, which is not exactly a beloved religion with the evangelical branch) got something like 78%. In that context, it was referring explicitly to "religious right" voters along the lines of the Christian Coalition and (before them) the Moral Majority-type voters. McCain got 74%, but all that goes unmentioned in the narrative. (And given the number of evangelicals is going down, it isn't that difficult for the number voting Republican to go up percentage-wise).

The reality, though, is something different: Trump compiled the most diverse electoral base in the history of American politics, adding to his numbers pretty much everywhere across the board. Folks may not like it, but Trump got 20% of the black male vote. And the degree to which the media goes to not say that very thing only reveals they've learned nothing. But that's not even what this is about.


My SUSPICION - that's all it is - is that this type article at a Christian school goes back to the "see, we matter, we made the difference" narrative from the Christians I heard in 2004 when Bush beat Kerry basically by the 4 million evangelicals who sat at home in 2000. I don't know if it's perpetual insecurity or self-induced oppression or what but it's another variant of the "God is on our side" argument.

I've never recalled the borderline worshipful idolatry evident in a number of evangelicals towards Trump shown to any other President. The religious right adored Reagan, but they were also very upset when he traded arms to Iran. And believe it or not, some thought Reagan - whose three names were all six letters each and thus 6-6-6 - was himself the Antichrist.

Which was always ridiculous since even in 1980 we knew Henry Kissinger was.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

This is an area where the church (evangelical) has dropped the ball for years and can't say one thing about the Catholic church. My friend is meeting with the leaders of his church this morning over a guy who has had a history of saying (sexually) inappropriate things to female members in the church. The church, for the most part, has done NOTHING to this guy. He's been talked to a few times over the years, but that's about it. A few weeks ago, this guy approached my friend's daughters (one being 15 yrs old) at an on campus church event and said several inappropriate things to them. He approached the guy and told him to stay away from his daughters, only to have him approach them again a week later and start up the same mess.

This person should have been removed from the church years ago. Yet, the church leaders allow this guy to remain a member and actively attend. There is explicit scripture in the Bible on how to deal with members like this, and most evangelical churches turn a blind eye to this scripture. It is a progressive discipline process that either ends in repentance or being put out of the church. Yet the church ignores that it even exists.

 

[92tide]

This level of association with and endorsement of such a despicable character should be enough to disgrace anyone in government, but the GOP lost any such sense of morality years ago. It's simply more evidence of the craven hypocrisy from a party that rarely hesitates to crow about its supposed Christian beliefs.

but it’s totally different for ”reasons”

 

[92tide]

This is an area where the church (evangelical) has dropped the ball for years and can't say one thing about the Catholic church. My friend is meeting with the leaders of his church this morning over a guy who has had a history of saying (sexually) inappropriate things to female members in the church. The church, for the most part, has done NOTHING to this guy. He's been talked to a few times over the years, but that's about it. A few weeks ago, this guy approached my friend's daughters (one being 15 yrs old) at an on campus church event and said several inappropriate things to them. He approached the guy and told him to stay away from his daughters, only to have him approach them again a week later and start up the same mess.

This person should have been removed from the church years ago. Yet, the church leaders allow this guy to remain a member and actively attend. There is explicit scripture in the Bible on how to deal with members like this, and most evangelical churches turn a blind eye to this scripture. It is a progressive discipline process that either ends in repentance or being put out of the church. Yet the church ignores that it even exists.

that’s disgusting

i’m a little surprised that dude hasn’t had his ass kicked by multiple dads

 

[CrimsonNagus]

This is an area where the church (evangelical) has dropped the ball for years and can't say one thing about the Catholic church. My friend is meeting with the leaders of his church this morning over a guy who has had a history of saying (sexually) inappropriate things to female members in the church. The church, for the most part, has done NOTHING to this guy. He's been talked to a few times over the years, but that's about it. A few weeks ago, this guy approached my friend's daughters (one being 15 yrs old) at an on campus church event and said several inappropriate things to them. He approached the guy and told him to stay away from his daughters, only to have him approach them again a week later and start up the same mess.

This person should have been removed from the church years ago. Yet, the church leaders allow this guy to remain a member and actively attend. There is explicit scripture in the Bible on how to deal with members like this, and most evangelical churches turn a blind eye to this scripture. It is a progressive discipline process that either ends in repentance or being put out of the church. Yet the church ignores that it even exists.

I used to go to a church that had a youth pastor who had several complaints from families that he was putting some teen females in sexually inappropriate situations, ie, flirting and getting handsy. The church did nothing for years, even while losing some members. Until it finally happened to a very prominent, wealthy family that threatened to sue and go to local media. That's what finally got this disgusting pastor fired.

My guess, and I'm not asking for more details, is that this member you mention was a prominent member who donated regularly. In my observation, churches have no issues pushing out members who do not tithe and volunteer much, but the ones who are heavily involved and regularly tithe don't get pushed out.

 

[75thru79]

I used to go to a church that had a youth pastor who had several complaints from families that he was putting some teen females in sexually inappropriate situations, ie, flirting and getting handsy. The church did nothing for years, even while losing some members. Until it finally happened to a very prominent, wealthy family that threatened to sue and go to local media. That's what finally got this disgusting pastor fired.

My guess, and I'm not asking for more details, is that this member you mention was a prominent member who donated regularly. In my observation, churches have no issues pushing out members who do not tithe and volunteer much, but the ones who are heavily involved and regularly tithe don't get pushed out.

Deviants seem to flourish in environments like this, where they take advantage of the cred they have because they are a "pastor". People are reluctant to call them out because they don't want to be seen as attacking someone who "loves the Lord".

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I used to go to a church that had a youth pastor who had several complaints from families that he was putting some teen females in sexually inappropriate situations, ie, flirting and getting handsy. The church did nothing for years, even while losing some members. Until it finally happened to a very prominent, wealthy family that threatened to sue and go to local media. That's what finally got this disgusting pastor fired.

My guess, and I'm not asking for more details, is that this member you mention was a prominent member who donated regularly. In my observation, churches have no issues pushing out members who do not tithe and volunteer much, but the ones who are heavily involved and regularly tithe don't get pushed out.

Oh, I'm certain you're probably right.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Deviants seem to flourish in environments like this, where they take advantage of the cred they have because they are a "pastor". People are reluctant to call them out because they don't want to be seen as attacking someone who "loves the Lord".

I'm UMC and we're just as guilty as the Catholic church in that, when a pastor has enough accusations, he's transferred to a conference far away and then brought back after several years, to a different church, of course. In one local instance, in a congregationally-organized church, the pastor was found to have a long-standing affair with the organist (I won't say which organs). He called together the leadership and pointed out his success in growth and finances, in effect saying he was entitled to his affair. They fired his ass anyway. (A boyhood friend was chief of staff and he said the members were insulted by his gall.) He went off to Texas for several years and then came back and started a nondenominational church. Dude wore more gold neck chains than anyone I know of...

 

[Padreruf]

I'm UMC and we're just as guilty as the Catholic church in that, when a pastor has enough accusations, he's transferred to a conference far away and then brought back after several years, to a different church, of course. In one local instance, in a congregationally-organized church, the pastor was found to have a long-standing affair with the organist (I won't say which organs). He called together the leadership and pointed out his success in growth and finances, in effect saying he was entitled to his affair. They fired his ass anyway. (A boyhood friend was chief of staff and he said the members were insulted by his gall.) He went off to Texas for several years and then came back and started a nondenominational church. Dude wore more gold neck chains than anyone I know of...

Someone should have said, "Just imagine how well we would have done if you had behaved yourself."

Or, "do you really think all this growth is due to you? Doesn't the congregation deserve some credit?"

I've seen this ploy more times than I care to remember.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Someone should have said, "Just imagine how well we would have done if you had behaved yourself."

Or, "do you really think all this growth is due to you? Doesn't the congregation deserve some credit?"

I've seen this ploy more times than I care to remember.

At the time, this was the largest church in town and the most heavily advertised. I'll never forget my first meeting with him. It was a birthday party for a friend, not a parishioner of his, in a local popular and noisy restaurant. We were introduced as Methodists, so his frostiness was made evident. He had on a shirt unbuttoned down at least 4 buttons, to show off his gold chains and pecs (former football player). The next thing I knew, he was conducting a prayer meeting at the end of the long table with his several members. This same friend was given a very valuable ring by a friend. Let's say worth $10K. Somehow, he found out and paid her a visit, demanding 10%, the church's share. Now, she wasn't even a member, just a regular attendee. She didn't even have that kind of cash, so she drew advances against her credit cards to give him the cash...

 

[AWRTR]

At the time, this was the largest church in town and the most heavily advertised. I'll never forget my first meeting with him. It was a birthday party for a friend, not a parishioner of his, in a local popular and noisy restaurant. We were introduced as Methodists, so his frostiness was made evident. He had on a shirt unbuttoned down at least 4 buttons, to show off his gold chains and pecs (former football player). The next thing I knew, he was conducting a prayer meeting at the end of the long table with his several members. This same friend was given a very valuable ring by a friend. Let's say worth $10K. Somehow, he found out and paid her a visit, demanding 10%, the church's share. Now, she wasn't even a member, just a regular attendee. She didn't even have that kind of cash, so she drew advances against her credit cards to give him the cash...

I can't tolerate people like that.

 

[Padreruf]

At the time, this was the largest church in town and the most heavily advertised. I'll never forget my first meeting with him. It was a birthday party for a friend, not a parishioner of his, in a local popular and noisy restaurant. We were introduced as Methodists, so his frostiness was made evident. He had on a shirt unbuttoned down at least 4 buttons, to show off his gold chains and pecs (former football player). The next thing I knew, he was conducting a prayer meeting at the end of the long table with his several members. This same friend was given a very valuable ring by a friend. Let's say worth $10K. Somehow, he found out and paid her a visit, demanding 10%, the church's share. Now, she wasn't even a member, just a regular attendee. She didn't even have that kind of cash, so she drew advances against her credit cards to give him the cash...

Why can people not see that these are con artists functioning in the name of Jesus? Are people really that dumb?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Why can people not see that these are con artists functioning in the name of Jesus? Are people really that dumb?

People can certainly act dumb when being scammed, especially affinity scams, like those based on co-religion. Think Bernie Madoff...

 

[Padreruf]

People can certainly act dumb when being scammed, especially affinity scams, like those based on co-religion. Think Bernie Madoff...

I've never heard the term "affinity scam." Makes a lot of sense...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I've never heard the term "affinity scam." Makes a lot of sense...

It's been around a while. I've seen numerous examples. It doesn't have to be religion. Here, in HSV, a former banker managed to set himself up as having all sorts of inside stock trading info and sucked in a large number of people. It was a Ponzi scheme. I had to pass his house everyday. On a back deck, he had several satellite dishes pointing up. Turned out they were connected to nothing...

 

[Padreruf]

It's been around a while. I've seen numerous examples. It doesn't have to be religion. Here, in HSV, a former banker managed to set himself up as having all sorts of inside stock trading info and sucked in a large number of people. It was a Ponzi scheme. I had to pass his house everyday. On a back deck, he had several satellite dishes pointing up. Turned out they were connected to nothing...

PT Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute and I'm here to milk him."

 

[AWRTR]

Why can people not see that these are con artists functioning in the name of Jesus? Are people really that dumb?

When someone is manipulative and charming even good people can be fooled quite easily. I dealt with it a few years ago at my church. We had a staff member that was living a double life. When things began to not add up and we in leadership started asking questions we were made out to be the villains. This person had developed a relatively small but loud cult of personality. When they were fired after more things came to light that were in direct violation of their employment contract we had to clean up the mess they left behind. It reminds me very much of the story above.

 

[Its On A Slab]

This is an area where the church (evangelical) has dropped the ball for years and can't say one thing about the Catholic church. My friend is meeting with the leaders of his church this morning over a guy who has had a history of saying (sexually) inappropriate things to female members in the church. The church, for the most part, has done NOTHING to this guy. He's been talked to a few times over the years, but that's about it. A few weeks ago, this guy approached my friend's daughters (one being 15 yrs old) at an on campus church event and said several inappropriate things to them. He approached the guy and told him to stay away from his daughters, only to have him approach them again a week later and start up the same mess.

This person should have been removed from the church years ago. Yet, the church leaders allow this guy to remain a member and actively attend. There is explicit scripture in the Bible on how to deal with members like this, and most evangelical churches turn a blind eye to this scripture. It is a progressive discipline process that either ends in repentance or being put out of the church. Yet the church ignores that it even exists.

I'm afraid my latent redneck DNA would kick in pretty quickly if this guy tried this with my kids.

When my 22 yr old's ex-bf refused to get out of her car, my wife had to step in because I was probably going to jail once I got finished with him. I don't countenance anyone messing with my family.

 

[AWRTR]

I'm afraid my latent redneck DNA would kick in pretty quickly if this guy tried this with my kids.

When my 22 yr old's ex-bf refused to get out of her car, my wife had to step in because I was probably going to jail once I got finished with him. I don't countenance anyone messing with my family.

Preach!