Would CNS Have Done Any Better This Year than CKD with the same roster???

[M2J]

Fair argument, but Pavia is the kind of QB CNS's defenses often struggled with.

No way Saban loses to Vandy and Oklahoma. Probably not either of them.


On the flip side with Saban, I could've seena loss to either Georgia, Missouri or South Carolina or LSU in addition to Tennessee.


But overall the team would've been better.

I'm just ready to see a fresh start... Everybody on the team moving forward has had every opportunity to go somewhere else and Kalen needs to coach them hard and exhaust his options to win every game.

I don't know if we'll ever be able to judge if he coaches them hard. Unless there's some weeks. But I can definitely judge if he exhausted every opportunity to win a game and there were several examples that he did not.

 

[BamaMoon]

Not many minds really understand all the variables as well as Saban did. People got upset when he complained about fans leaving early, some basically telling him to shut up. He was concerned with anything that could influence the outcome of games, and fans leaving early could. Why? Because it didn't look good to recruits he had at the game, and even if he lost just one single recruit, that could negatively influence the outcome of a game.

That's how he viewed things, every tiny detail matters and you never left them to chance. I don't know if DeBoer fails to consider all the variables, or merely if he isn't the workaholic or taskmaster that Saban is and doesn't demand adherence the way Saban does. There is no question though just looking at his resume he doesn't have that kind of laser sharp focus.

He does seem like a legit big game coach though, but really those are two different things. Preparing for a few big games a year is not like the ability to avoid all those potholes along the way that can take you out.

If we are talking CNS pre-Covid, I agree with everything you said.

That's not the CNS of 2021-23 and the CNS we are trying to imagine could have coached this year's team. There were too many things that suddenly looked different. Maybe not preparation, but attention to details like penalties and struggles on defense.

And here's the thing. We only knew these things mattered to CNS because he talked about them. Who is to say CKD doesn't pay attention to these details but he's just not talking about it publicly? We know he's not a "fountain of knowledge" when he does speak to the press.

At any rate, just because we didn't see some of these things doesn't mean he's not concerned about it.

 

[Evil Crimson Dragon]

Not many minds really understand all the variables as well as Saban did. People got upset when he complained about fans leaving early, some basically telling him to shut up. He was concerned with anything that could influence the outcome of games, and fans leaving early could. Why? Because it didn't look good to recruits he had at the game, and even if he lost just one single recruit, that could negatively influence the outcome of a game.

That's how he viewed things, every tiny detail matters and you never left them to chance. I don't know if DeBoer fails to consider all the variables, or merely if he isn't the workaholic or taskmaster that Saban is and doesn't demand adherence the way Saban does. There is no question though just looking at his resume he doesn't have that kind of laser sharp focus.

He does seem like a legit big game coach though, but really those are two different things. Preparing for a few big games a year is not like the ability to avoid all those potholes along the way that can take you out.

Saban was a master strategist...............while other great coaches aren't. I can see having a ton of analysts to help with the small things

 

[KrAzY3]

That's not the CNS of 2021-23 and the CNS we are trying to imagine could have coached this year's team. There were too many things that suddenly looked different. Maybe not preparation, but attention to details like penalties and struggles on defense.

And here's the thing. We only knew these things mattered to CNS because he talked about them. Who is to say CKD doesn't pay attention to these details but he's just not talking about it publicly? We know he's not a "fountain of knowledge" when he does speak to the press.

The answer is right there in what you said but you seem to be overlooking the why. Why would things suddenly look difference when there's a new head coach. Why might that be the case?

Don't you remember the midseason thing where there was suddenly a push to get players to tuck in their pants and show up to meetings on time? This means no one was bothering to make them do that prior!

As far as attention to those details, I know it because I witnessed the lack of attention. I've alluded to some examples. Sending the wrong player onto the field, entirely on coaching, which cost the Vanderbilt game. Wearing the wrong cleats, which blew up a couple drives and probably cost the Michigan game. Those are all details that were overlooked...

Furthermore, I've cited the games against inferior competition DeBoer has lost the past few years, not just 3-9 Arizona St. (with Penix mind you), but also Hawaii and Oklahoma. This is a problem he has, and you don't lose to a team that's way worse than your team if you handle all the small stuff correctly. There's a reason Saban went over a decade without having that sort of a loss.

 

[johnbt]

The answer is right there in what you said but you seem to be overlooking the why. Why would things suddenly look difference when there's a new head coach. Why might that be the case?

Don't you remember the midseason thing where there was suddenly a push to get players to tuck in their pants and show up to meetings on time? This means no one was bothering to make them do that prior!

As far as attention to those details, I know it because I witnessed the lack of attention. I've alluded to some examples. Sending the wrong player onto the field, entirely on coaching, which cost the Vanderbilt game. Wearing the wrong cleats, which blew up a couple drives and probably cost the Michigan game. Those are all details that were overlooked...

Furthermore, I've cited the games against inferior competition DeBoer has lost the past few years, not just 3-9 Arizona St. (with Penix mind you), but also Hawaii and Oklahoma. This is a problem he has, and you don't lose to a team that's way worse than your team if you handle all the small stuff correctly. There's a reason Saban went over a decade without having that sort of a loss.

It just means he's an average coach. Most good and even some great coaches lose games against inferior opponents

Saban lost 5 in 17 seasons

 

[Slowpoke Catracho]

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It just means he's an average coach. Most good and even some great coaches lose games against inferior opponents

Saban lost 5 in 17 seasons

In retrospect, this is exactly why Saban should've retired after the 2020 season so we could have gotten a shot at an above average coach with Sark. Sark was hired on Jan. 2, 2021.

But as CNS says, "It is what it is" and we have to leave it at that! No way Byrne was going to hire CLK (per GMAC and others close to the program) and evidently others said "No"! And thank goodness for that!

* I don't believe that CKD is mediocre or average. I think he is up and coming and was left with a bad situation He is just too nice of a guy to tell a young person to hit the road!

 

[Krymsonman]

I would say yes, mainly because I think we would have been far better prepared to play in every game. This year it looked like we were prepared to play up thru Georgia, then something happened and all semblance of preparation seemed to go out the window. The only exception was the LSU game, but that one was pretty easy. Just run Jalen.

 

[92tide]

I think Vandy and Oklahoma at least.........might have lost to UGA, or not. The UGA fans are calling that loss a fluke now.........which is hilarious considering he beat them twice in 365 days

on two separate occasions

and i can’t wait ‘til they twist themselves into pretzels explaining away their loss to us in athens next season

 

[CoolBreeze]

Great, another hypothetical off season thread. Cannot compare given that we would not have had the exodus of players. Different players, different coaches, only thing being equal is the same running QB. Nick would have gotten us in the playoff and Rees would have gotten more out of the QB. We'd win two games in the playoff and lose in the Semis. But again....

 

[Tidewater]

To whomever reworded the thread title, the OCD grammar nazi in me thanks you…

Your welcome.

 

[Isaiah 63:1]

Your welcome.

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

 

[Evil Crimson Dragon]

on two separate occasions

and i can’t wait ‘til they twist themselves into pretzels explaining away their loss to us in athens next season

Oh, they already have that game won...........just have to show up, if you listen to their fans

 

[81usaf92]

The answer is right there in what you said but you seem to be overlooking the why. Why would things suddenly look difference when there's a new head coach. Why might that be the case?

Don't you remember the midseason thing where there was suddenly a push to get players to tuck in their pants and show up to meetings on time? This means no one was bothering to make them do that prior!

As far as attention to those details, I know it because I witnessed the lack of attention. I've alluded to some examples. Sending the wrong player onto the field, entirely on coaching, which cost the Vanderbilt game. Wearing the wrong cleats, which blew up a couple drives and probably cost the Michigan game. Those are all details that were overlooked...

Furthermore, I've cited the games against inferior competition DeBoer has lost the past few years, not just 3-9 Arizona St. (with Penix mind you), but also Hawaii and Oklahoma. This is a problem he has, and you don't lose to a team that's way worse than your team if you handle all the small stuff correctly. There's a reason Saban went over a decade without having that sort of a loss.

Yeah and you have consistently said “we should give Dabo a call” even though he lost to Pittsburgh at home with Deshaun Watson, lost to a 4-8 Syracuse team with an NFL laced team, and outside of a 5 year period with Deshaun and Trevor has struggled to win a Mickey Mouse ACC conference with a far and away better roster than the rest of the conference. Basically every criticism you have about DeBoer you could easily make about Dabo, but the only difference(s) are that DeBoer is the only one with coaching experience in the SEC or B1G and Dabo has 2 NCs by two generational quarterbacks.

Just accept that no one is close to Nick Saban, and even Nick Saban now isn’t the same Nick Saban from 2007-2017. I think with the new professionalized version of college football we need to look at what works in the nfl and think in that direction. A Mike Tomlin, Andy Reid, and John Harbaugh type coach is probably going to be the answer going forward.

 

[CoolBreeze]

Oh, they already have that game won...........just have to show up, if you listen to their fans

The key is to not listen to their fans. We are talking about people that dress up like they are on fansville or something. Wretched.

 

[Evil Crimson Dragon]

The key is to not listen to their fans. We are talking about people that dress up like they are on fansville or something. Wretched.

I live in Ga and have to listen to them whether I want to or not..............they point fingers at other fan bases, but they strut like new money at the country club

 

[KrAzY3]

It just means he's an average coach. Most good and even some great coaches lose games against inferior opponents

Saban lost 5 in 17 seasons

I pretty much agree with your point, I just want to make sure I got what I was trying to say across (and for the record I took note early in the year when a Washington fan pointed out the losing to inferior competition thing). It isn't just losing to inferior opponents. It's losing to vastly inferior opponents, specifically teams with losing records.

In 2021, 2022, and 2024 DeBoer lost to teams with losing records and in each case in doing so it kept his team out of their conference championship game.

I went back and checked, to make sure I got it right. Saban never lost to a team with a losing record at Alabama, not once from 2007-2023. It says a lot about what makes Saban great, but it's also quite alarming when evaluating DeBoer, because he really needs to be a lot better than average.

Edit: I actually had to go back to 1998 to find a team with a losing record that Nick Saban lost to, when Michigan St. lost to 5-6 Minnesota by a point, while DeBoer has done that 4 times in his 5 seasons as a FBS coach.

 

[colbysullivan]

2020 was absolutely the peak

That was CNS’s Best Team and Bama’s Best Ever.

That Offense was Insane.

We just Destroyed everybody.

We had 3 Heisman Finalists…. Lol

That was the moment to leave on the highest note for sure.

Best team in history. 2019 LSU (who almost lost to us and the Barn) can go pound sand.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

He would likely have done better but how much? Just one win in the 3 losses gets us into the playoff, possibly the SECCG and in with a bye. Of course he wouldn’t have lost players whose reason for entering the portal was him leaving, so we are talking about comparing an incumbent coach with a stable team largely in place versus a brand new coach with a decimated roster and new environment.

It’s a fool’s venture and kind of pointless. I’m old enough to remember fans complaining about Ray Perkins going 8-4 with losses to Tennessee and Auburn his first year, conveniently forgetting Bryant was 8-4 with those same losses and largely the same roster his previous year. And what blew apart that dynasty - which like now was dead before Perkins took over - was the flattening out of talent made inevitable by the scholarship restrictions that became universal in 1976. The freshmen of 1976 were the seniors of 1979, and as it played out, 1980-84 saw a lot of changes in who won, including Iowa and Illinois winning the Big 10 for the first time in years, six different SEC “champions” in a row, and a series of teams winning their first ever national titles. By 1985, the pendulum began to swing back towards the powerhouses and ONE new one emerged, Miami. But success invariably tilted towards the usual powers, it just didn’t stay as long.

I figure something similar is likely to happen here but the portal will require regulation. DeBoer inherited a stiffer challenge than Perkins or Dubious because players couldn’t just up and leave previously.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Yes. CNS would have done better but idk how much

 

[bamaga]

For one, the team would be different, Downs, Bond, Sayin , Amos, Ricks, Grimsley, Niblack , Kite , Brockermeyer would probably be on the team. So it would be a different team. we would have a different center, so that may have been a problem area??
We don’t lose to Vandy or OU in my opinion. Those games would be close. But we are dealing in hypotheticals, how do we know . We may have lost to Georgia and USCe, and beat Vandy and OU.
But MHO, we go 12-0 , Jalen is managed better. He didn’t fit CKD‘s offense, round peg, square hole.