Charlie Kirk Part III

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Tidewater

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I do not believe a lot of people believe this (at least I hope not), but I saw a African-American college girl tell one of the people finishing up Charlie Kirk's college tour that tons of American college students are getting lynched on college campuses today and Charlie Kirk encouraged that. She was dead serious. When challenged on both assertions, she spent a few moments on her phone searching and eventually gave up. I'm sure she still believes both of those assertions.

And while nobody who had a reasonable criticism of Kirk (and they are out there) directly caused this guy to go shoot Kirk, but what one person says gets interpreted and passed on to the next until all proportion is lost. If we start with, "I do not agree with that person on X" it becames in a few steps., "Someone should shoot that scumbag," and then somone goes and does it.

I just hope we do better at separating the untrue garbage and the true facts. We just have to do better. If you hear some unbelievable thing that someone on the side of the political spectrum allegedly said or did, it is best to not believe it, to critically investigate with skepticism, challenge assumptions and demand reliable evidence.
 

CrimsonJazz

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I just hope we do better at separating the untrue garbage and the true facts. We just have to do better. If you hear some unbelievable thing that someone on the side of the political spectrum allegedly said or did, it is best to not believe it, to critically investigate with skepticism, challenge assumptions and demand reliable evidence.
Brother, I've got some disappointing news for you if you really expect college-aged kids to do this while they are right in the middle of their re-education. These nut-ball leftist professors have these kids' minds in a stranglehold. Kirk was doing his part and in a lot of ways was finding some unexpected success. I firmly believe this is why he died. No conspiracies, no tin-foil hattery, no Israeli assassinations (yes, that's a theory making the rounds.) I simply feel he was a threat to this Orwellian nightmare scenario that creates idiots like the person you described above. No free-thinking individual is going to be stupid enough to actually believe that without some serious indoctrination.
 

CrimsonJazz

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People who toss around names like "Hitler" and "Fascist" are just so full of hatred they resort to name calling.

And many of them feel they are intellectuals.

Try to square that kind of mindset...... :rolleyes:
At this point, I'm fine with being called names. I just don't want to get shot.
 

Tidewater

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People who toss around names like "Hitler" and "Fascist" are just so full of hatred they resort to name calling.

And many of them feel they are intellectuals.

Try to square that kind of mindset...... :rolleyes:
Nazis held some particular beliefs. Fascists held a slightly different set of beliefs. They can be looked up to determine whether a political figure today also shares those.
To stop at simply calling anyone espousing policies I do not endorse a "Nazi" or "fascist" is lazy, inaccurate, and cheapens the suffering of the victims of real Nazis and fascists.
 

Its On A Slab

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It's not really that hard to see how the word "fascism" is starting to be bandied about.

Read into it what you must, but I can see someone positing that many of these are happening.

I know that no one likes labels, but if the shoe fits.

Core characteristics of fascism
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism(America First): Fascist regimes promote an intense sense of national unity, superiority, and devotion to the nation, often accompanied by historical grievance or a sense of national humiliation.
  • Cult of the leader(MAGA): A single, dictatorial leader is glorified as a redemptive, infallible figure who embodies the national will. Loyalty to this leader is seen as paramount.
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats(Illegal immigrants, trans, peer-reviewed science): A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities, immigrants, or political opponents, and blaming them for the nation's problems.
  • Suppression of opposition(FCC, voter suppression, etc): Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda(FCC, White House throwing out journalists who challenge Dear Leader, etc): The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security(Needless saber-rattling): The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime.
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda.
Fascist strategies
In addition to the above characteristics, fascists employ common strategies to gain and maintain power:
  • Populism: Leaders claim to speak for the "common people" against corrupt, out-of-touch elites.
  • Mass mobilization: Fascists organize large, theatrical rallies, parades, and meetings to generate patriotic fervor and a sense of belonging among their followers.
  • Glorification of youth: The young are praised for their strength and idealism and are often mobilized for the cause, sometimes through youth groups.
  • Rewriting history: The nation's past is often mythologized and glorified, with any criticism of this national myth viewed as unpatriotic.
 
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Tidewater

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It's not really that hard to see how the word "fascism" is starting to be bandied about.

Read into it what you must, but I can see someone positing that many of these are happening.

I know that no one likes labels, but if the shoe fits.

Core characteristics of fascism
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism(America First): Fascist regimes promote an intense sense of national unity, superiority, and devotion to the nation, often accompanied by historical grievance or a sense of national humiliation.
  • Cult of the leader(MAGA): A single, dictatorial leader is glorified as a redemptive, infallible figure who embodies the national will. Loyalty to this leader is seen as paramount.
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats(Illegal immigrants, trans, peer-reviewed science): A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities, immigrants, or political opponents, and blaming them for the nation's problems.
  • Suppression of opposition(FCC, voter suppression, etc): Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda(FCC, White House throwing out journalists who challenge Dear Leader, etc): The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security(Needless saber-rattling): The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime.
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda.
Fascist strategies
In addition to the above characteristics, fascists employ common strategies to gain and maintain power:
  • Populism: Leaders claim to speak for the "common people" against corrupt, out-of-touch elites.
  • Mass mobilization: Fascists organize large, theatrical rallies, parades, and meetings to generate patriotic fervor and a sense of belonging among their followers.
  • Glorification of youth: The young are praised for their strength and idealism and are often mobilized for the cause, sometimes through youth groups.
  • Rewriting history: The nation's past is often mythologized and glorified, with any criticism of this national myth viewed as unpatriotic.
Are you saying Italian fascist Mussolini believed in "America first?"
And I thought that Italian fascists like Mussolini, but you appear to be arguing that the
Italian fascist wanted Trump. Trump wasn't even born then.

To have some analytical power, a construct has to present some enduring characteristic that define the party, not some vague
Let me show you an example. Let's apply those standards to the Republican party of Abraham LIncoln in 1860-77 (my comments are in italics and underlined.
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism: "The Union predated the states and has a higher call on the loyalty of the citizen than the states which created it."
  • Cult of the leader: Ever been to the western end of the Mall in DC or looked at a $5 bill?
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats: A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities (southerners), immigrants (all the northern members of the anti-immigrant "Know Nothing" Party of 1850 were Republicans in 1860), or political opponents (Democrats), and blaming them for the nation's problems. "Shut up and wave your flag!" was pretty much the unofficial motto of the Lincoln Administration.
  • Suppression of opposition: Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents. In September 1861, the Lincoln Administration ordered the arrest of "any or all" of the Maryland legislature before they voted on holding a state convention . The Lincoln Admin. jailed 38,000 men they themselves called "political prisoners" without charge and many of them for years without trial. Some of them for saying "the current crowd running the war are incompetent and therefore, young men should not enlist; you'll just be throwing away your life." The Army arrested them. (See John A. Marshall's American Bastille from 1876). In December 1865, Republicans denied seats to the southern state Congressional delegations, thus effectively disfranchising all voters in every southern state.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda: The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat. The Lincoln Administration closed 300 northern newspapers during the war for printing stories they did not like. Other newspaper took the hint and toed the line.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security: The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation. The United States between grew by 750,000 sq miles over the objections of the people living there. This is a classic example of imperialism.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty. This is precisely why Republicans wanted power in 1860. And why they wanted to hold onto it. In fact, by far the most corrupt administration in American history to that point was Grant's Republican Administration.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law. Every southern state elected a state convention to consider the election of a party that protected men who committed acts of violence. And in every one of these states, the decision democratically adopted was brutally crushed. The first time the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus was suspended was when Lincoln did it in April 1861 from DC to Maine. And he did it without Congressional authority, even though that power is in Art. I of the Constitution, which deals with the legislative power. Lincoln just did it. He then placed a DC Circuit judge under house arrest for ruling against him. One of his close friends, Ward Lamon, said Lincoln even authorized the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court although the warrant was never executed.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime. Lincoln sprinkled enough religious vocabulary in his rhetoric that the credulous bought his cant. Considering the 750,000 deaths his decisions had caused, Lincoln said, "The judgments of the Lord are true and just altogether." In other words, "It's not my fault. God did it so quit griping at me."
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights. Philip Foner in his 1941 book Business and Slavery: The New York Merchants and the Irrepressible Conflict shows that New York City businessmen in March 1861 were scared to death of peaceful secession and promised to fund any war that followed. And that war made them rich. What better way to crush labor than drafting men into the army and flinging them at enemy trenches? Problem solved.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda. Any intellectual engaging in critical thinking about the war effort would find the army knocking at his door at 2:00 o'clock in the morning and he would be arrested and taken to then nearest military installation, without charges, without benefit of counsel. Intellectuals and artists aligned with the state narrative were left alone.
Therefore, the Republicans between 1860 and 1877 were fascists.

I could do much the same thing for Barack Obama.
My point is this: If a political science construct is so nebulous as to cover Donald Trump, Abraham Lincoln and Barack Obama, i would assert is has limited utility in a political discussion.
If the Trump Administration builds a monument to Trump bigger than the Lincoln Memorial, invades its Canada or Mexico, sends the army to close opposition media outlets, or sticks immigrants or Mexicans into gas chambers, then we can talk fascism.
Until that point, it is insulting to the actual victims of the fascists. Real fascists murdered real Jews and shoved their bodies into real ovens. Throwing that word around flippantly dishonors their suffering.
 

92tide

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It's not really that hard to see how the word "fascism" is starting to be bandied about.

Read into it what you must, but I can see someone positing that many of these are happening.

I know that no one likes labels, but if the shoe fits.

Core characteristics of fascism
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism(America First): Fascist regimes promote an intense sense of national unity, superiority, and devotion to the nation, often accompanied by historical grievance or a sense of national humiliation.
  • Cult of the leader(MAGA): A single, dictatorial leader is glorified as a redemptive, infallible figure who embodies the national will. Loyalty to this leader is seen as paramount.
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats(Illegal immigrants, trans, peer-reviewed science): A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities, immigrants, or political opponents, and blaming them for the nation's problems.
  • Suppression of opposition(FCC, voter suppression, etc): Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda(FCC, White House throwing out journalists who challenge Dear Leader, etc): The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security(Needless saber-rattling): The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime.
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda.
Fascist strategies
In addition to the above characteristics, fascists employ common strategies to gain and maintain power:
  • Populism: Leaders claim to speak for the "common people" against corrupt, out-of-touch elites.
  • Mass mobilization: Fascists organize large, theatrical rallies, parades, and meetings to generate patriotic fervor and a sense of belonging among their followers.
  • Glorification of youth: The young are praised for their strength and idealism and are often mobilized for the cause, sometimes through youth groups.
  • Rewriting history: The nation's past is often mythologized and glorified, with any criticism of this national myth viewed as unpatriotic.
you must be new here
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Are you saying Italian fascist Mussolini believed in "America first?"
And I thought that Italian fascists like Mussolini, but you appear to be arguing that the
Italian fascist wanted Trump. Trump wasn't even born then.

To have some analytical power, a construct has to present some enduring characteristic that define the party, not some vague
Let me show you an example. Let's apply those standards to the Republican party of Abraham LIncoln in 1860-77 (my comments are in italics and underlined.
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism: "The Union predated the states and has a higher call on the loyalty of the citizen than the states which created it."
  • Cult of the leader: Ever been to the western end of the Mall in DC or looked at a $5 bill?
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats: A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities (southerners), immigrants (all the northern members of the anti-immigrant "Know Nothing" Party of 1850 were Republicans in 1860), or political opponents (Democrats), and blaming them for the nation's problems. "Shut up and wave your flag!" was pretty much the unofficial motto of the Lincoln Administration.
  • Suppression of opposition: Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents. In September 1861, the Lincoln Administration ordered the arrest of "any or all" of the Maryland legislature before they voted on holding a state convention . The Lincoln Admin. jailed 38,000 men they themselves called "political prisoners" without charge and many of them for years without trial. Some of them for saying "the current crowd running the war are incompetent and therefore, young men should not enlist; you'll just be throwing away your life." The Army arrested them. (See John A. Marshall's American Bastille from 1876). In December 1865, Republicans denied seats to the southern state Congressional delegations, thus effectively disfranchising all voters in every southern state.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda: The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat. The Lincoln Administration closed 300 northern newspapers during the war for printing stories they did not like. Other newspaper took the hint and toed the line.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security: The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation. The United States between grew by 750,000 sq miles over the objections of the people living there. This is a classic example of imperialism.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty. This is precisely why Republicans wanted power in 1860. And why they wanted to hold onto it. In fact, by far the most corrupt administration in American history to that point was Grant's Republican Administration.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law. Every southern state elected a state convention to consider the election of a party that protected men who committed acts of violence. And in every one of these states, the decision democratically adopted was brutally crushed. The first time the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus was suspended was when Lincoln did it in April 1861 from DC to Maine. And he did it without Congressional authority, even though that power is in Art. I of the Constitution, which deals with the legislative power. Lincoln just did it. He then placed a DC Circuit judge under house arrest for ruling against him. One of his close friends, Ward Lamon, said Lincoln even authorized the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court although the warrant was never executed.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime. Lincoln sprinkled enough religious vocabulary in his rhetoric that the credulous bought his cant. Considering the 750,000 deaths his decisions had caused, Lincoln said, "The judgments of the Lord are true and just altogether." In other words, "It's not my fault. God did it so quit griping at me."
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights. Philip Foner in his 1941 book Business and Slavery: The New York Merchants and the Irrepressible Conflict shows that New York City businessmen in March 1861 were scared to death of peaceful secession and promised to fund any war that followed. And that war made them rich. What better way to crush labor than drafting men into the army and flinging them at enemy trenches? Problem solved.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda. Any intellectual engaging in critical thinking about the war effort would find the army knocking at his door at 2:00 o'clock in the morning and he would be arrested and taken to then nearest military installation, without charges, without benefit of counsel. Intellectuals and artists aligned with the state narrative were left alone.
Therefore, the Republicans between 1860 and 1877 were fascists.

I could do much the same thing for Barack Obama.
My point is this: If a political science construct is so nebulous as to cover Donald Trump, Abraham Lincoln and Barack Obama, i would assert is has limited utility in a political discussion.
If the Trump Administration builds a monument to Trump bigger than the Lincoln Memorial, invades its Canada or Mexico, send the army to close opposition media outlets, or sticks immigrants or Mexicans into gas chambers, then we can talk fascism.
Until that point, it is insulting to the actual victims of the fascists. Real fascists murdered real Jews and shoved their bodies into real ovens. Throwing that word around flippantly dishonors their suffering.
Without using labels, it is not out of line at all to point out strong parallels between what's happening here and what's happened in other societies which slid into fascist-style authoritarianism. In fact, it needs pointing out continually. As I've said about a million times, I had a good friend who suffered through the real nightmare in Germany and she pointed it out to me continually...
 

Tidewater

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Without using labels, it is not out of line at all to point out strong parallels between what's happening here and what's happened in other societies which slid into fascist-style authoritarianism. In fact, it needs pointing out continually. As I've said about a million times, I had a good friend who suffered through the real nightmare in Germany and she pointed it out to me continually...
True, but the preference of the Left for state-owned solutions and every more powerful central authority is also what happened in the slide toward communist countries. People who called themselves "socialists" murdered 100 million people in the century from 1917 to 2017, but labelling everybody that is left of center a Communist is neither honest nor helpful.
People still do it, however. We would be wise to treat such claims with skepticism as well.
 

JDCrimson

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That was the outcome for Hitler and the Nazis once they were fully in power with no dissent during world war. What did the Nazi movement look like before it was fully seated into power? What methods did the Nazis use to move into power?

We have honored those who dont learn history are doomed to repeat it. Imo, it's too late to detur, deflate, or define a movement only until a genocide is underway or complete.

To me the bigger dishonor to those who died in the Holocaust is to not learn from it and allow something similar happen again.

I have always thought that Stephen Miller is an Oswald Moseley within the MAGA movement.

You have appropriately shown in our national history we have courted fascism as a means to power - exercised during our Civil War.

We are not trending in direction of more freedom or even a preservation of the freedom that we have been accustomed over our lives to date. And that, imo, is not good for any of us...
 
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Tidewater

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Obviously, both fascism and National Socialism arose in a context.
In the late nineteenth century, industrialization created an urban working class. Socialists had their ideas about to do about that. Fascists and Nazis, in turn, had their ideas about the socialist solutions.
At the same time, ethnic nationalism grew (German nationalism 1848-1870, Italian nationalism 1860s, spreading to eastern Europe later in the 1800s, with Polish nationalism, Serbian nationalism. etc.). The multi-ethnic Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Russian Empire all died in the era of the triumph of ethnic nationalism. The fascist idea was to accentuate the nationalism, and use the chauvinism it created to suppress dissent and enable aggressive foreign policy.

Calling someone today a fascist is as silly as calling Lincoln one, because the context has changed. Lincoln was reacting to socialist political economy, and his nationalism was an ethnic one, but strictly a federal one: the federal government is as close to God as there is on earth. A very Hegelian view. Lincoln believed the federal government is not the servant of the people. It was the master..
Of course this is repugnant to the prior views born of the Enlightenment: the people, in unmistakable terms, had placed limits on their creation, the federal government's powers. For this reason, Abraham Lincoln was far and away the worst president in the history of these United States because his entire career was an insult to the idea that the people can govern themselves. He wiped his backside with the Constitution. And he is worshipped for it.

Trump has a lot more in common with Lincoln than any other president. I would bet anyone that Trump has never read the Constitution, and could not explain any of its provisions. He is very Lincolnian in that regard. Both decide what they want to do, then scan the document (or have their lawyers scan it) for some provision that can be twisted and mercilessly tortured into authorizing the desired act.
 

JDCrimson

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I get can get on board with Lincoln being a fascist. But Lincoln took office into an emerging civil war. Im not sure what would have happened with his presidency had he not been assassinated. Would he have tried to carry on as presidential dictator?

You are more educated on such matters than me. But there is a definition for what is evolving and I will reiterate it aint healthy for our country.
 
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jthomas666

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If the Trump Administration builds a monument to Trump bigger than the Lincoln Memorial, invades its Canada or Mexico, sends the army to close opposition media outlets, or sticks immigrants or Mexicans into gas chambers, then we can talk fascism.
Until that point, it is insulting to the actual victims of the fascists. Real fascists murdered real Jews and shoved their bodies into real ovens. Throwing that word around flippantly dishonors their suffering.
You know what would be actually insulting to the victim's memories? To allow another fascist regime to come into power. To see us headed down that road, and shrug our shoulders and say "Welp...they haven't done anything really bad yet."

You want to honor their memory? Maybe do something BEFORE the invasions, media shutdowns, and gas chambers.
 

Its On A Slab

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Are you saying Italian fascist Mussolini believed in "America first?"
And I thought that Italian fascists like Mussolini, but you appear to be arguing that the
Italian fascist wanted Trump. Trump wasn't even born then.

To have some analytical power, a construct has to present some enduring characteristic that define the party, not some vague
Let me show you an example. Let's apply those standards to the Republican party of Abraham LIncoln in 1860-77 (my comments are in italics and underlined.
  • Powerful and continuing nationalism: "The Union predated the states and has a higher call on the loyalty of the citizen than the states which created it."
  • Cult of the leader: Ever been to the western end of the Mall in DC or looked at a $5 bill?
  • Identification of enemies and scapegoats: A unifying cause is created by demonizing certain groups, such as ethnic minorities (southerners), immigrants (all the northern members of the anti-immigrant "Know Nothing" Party of 1850 were Republicans in 1860), or political opponents (Democrats), and blaming them for the nation's problems. "Shut up and wave your flag!" was pretty much the unofficial motto of the Lincoln Administration.
  • Suppression of opposition: Dissent is treated as treason. Fascist regimes use intimidation, violence, and state-controlled police to forcibly eliminate or suppress political opposition and dissidents. In September 1861, the Lincoln Administration ordered the arrest of "any or all" of the Maryland legislature before they voted on holding a state convention . The Lincoln Admin. jailed 38,000 men they themselves called "political prisoners" without charge and many of them for years without trial. Some of them for saying "the current crowd running the war are incompetent and therefore, young men should not enlist; you'll just be throwing away your life." The Army arrested them. (See John A. Marshall's American Bastille from 1876). In December 1865, Republicans denied seats to the southern state Congressional delegations, thus effectively disfranchising all voters in every southern state.
  • Controlled mass media and propaganda: The government or leader maintains strict control over the media to manipulate information, spread propaganda, and suppress any critical voices. Disagreement or critical discourse may be framed as a threat. The Lincoln Administration closed 300 northern newspapers during the war for printing stories they did not like. Other newspaper took the hint and toed the line.
  • Militarism and obsession with national security: The military is given a supreme and respected position. Aggressive and expansionist foreign policies are common, with violence often glorified as a tool for national rejuvenation. The United States between grew by 750,000 sq miles over the objections of the people living there. This is a classic example of imperialism.
  • Rampant cronyism and corruption: The regime is often run by a network of friends and associates who are appointed to positions of power and use their authority for personal gain. Competence is less valued than loyalty. This is precisely why Republicans wanted power in 1860. And why they wanted to hold onto it. In fact, by far the most corrupt administration in American history to that point was Grant's Republican Administration.
  • Erosion of democratic institutions: Fascists actively undermine the principles and institutions of liberal democracy, such as competitive elections, individual rights, and the rule of law. Every southern state elected a state convention to consider the election of a party that protected men who committed acts of violence. And in every one of these states, the decision democratically adopted was brutally crushed. The first time the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus was suspended was when Lincoln did it in April 1861 from DC to Maine. And he did it without Congressional authority, even though that power is in Art. I of the Constitution, which deals with the legislative power. Lincoln just did it. He then placed a DC Circuit judge under house arrest for ruling against him. One of his close friends, Ward Lamon, said Lincoln even authorized the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court although the warrant was never executed.
  • Intertwined government and religion: The government and a dominant religious establishment often become entwined, with religious rhetoric used to legitimize the regime. Lincoln sprinkled enough religious vocabulary in his rhetoric that the credulous bought his cant. Considering the 750,000 deaths his decisions had caused, Lincoln said, "The judgments of the Lord are true and just altogether." In other words, "It's not my fault. God did it so quit griping at me."
  • Corporate and state power protected, labor power suppressed: Fascist economies are often based on a form of corporatism where the state intervenes to manage the economy, often benefiting powerful business interests while dismantling labor unions and suppressing workers' rights. Philip Foner in his 1941 book Business and Slavery: The New York Merchants and the Irrepressible Conflict shows that New York City businessmen in March 1861 were scared to death of peaceful secession and promised to fund any war that followed. And that war made them rich. What better way to crush labor than drafting men into the army and flinging them at enemy trenches? Problem solved.
  • Disdain for intellectuals and the arts: Higher education, critical thinking, and free artistic expression that does not align with the state narrative are often attacked, censored, or replaced with character-building propaganda. Any intellectual engaging in critical thinking about the war effort would find the army knocking at his door at 2:00 o'clock in the morning and he would be arrested and taken to then nearest military installation, without charges, without benefit of counsel. Intellectuals and artists aligned with the state narrative were left alone.
Therefore, the Republicans between 1860 and 1877 were fascists.

I could do much the same thing for Barack Obama.
My point is this: If a political science construct is so nebulous as to cover Donald Trump, Abraham Lincoln and Barack Obama, i would assert is has limited utility in a political discussion.
If the Trump Administration builds a monument to Trump bigger than the Lincoln Memorial, invades its Canada or Mexico, sends the army to close opposition media outlets, or sticks immigrants or Mexicans into gas chambers, then we can talk fascism.
Until that point, it is insulting to the actual victims of the fascists. Real fascists murdered real Jews and shoved their bodies into real ovens. Throwing that word around flippantly dishonors their suffering.
The last I checked, i think I said America.

Fascism isn't restricted to 1930s Europe. We had the German-American Bund in the 1930s. George Lincoln Rockwell (who would probably be a MAGA hero today) later on. And one can posit that the Business Plot had elements of it.
 
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Tidewater

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You know what would be actually insulting to the victim's memories? To allow another fascist regime to come into power. To see us headed down that road, and shrug our shoulders and say "Welp...they haven't done anything really bad yet."

You want to honor their memory? Maybe do something BEFORE the invasions, media shutdowns, and gas chambers.
Bolshevik.

You continue to conflate the rhetorical device and reality.
Do you really think Trump has the intellectual capacity to develop a political ideology? Hitler and Mussolini, while both twisted, at least had something like an ideology. Twisted and ugly and based on false premises, but at least somewhat coherent. I doubt Trump even could tell you what an ideology is.
I promise, if Trump starts shoving people into gas chambers, invades and occupies Canada or Mexico ("Por que no los dos?"), I will come to Tidefans Nonsports and admit I was wrong.
Maybe they will allow you to read Tidefans Nonsports from your concentration camp.
 

Tidewater

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The last I checked, i think I said America.

Fascism isn't restricted to 1930s Europe. We had the German-American Bund in the 1930s. George Lincoln Rockwell (who would probably be a MAGA hero today) later on. And one can posit that the Business Plot had elements of it.
But you did not cite the German-American Bund. The group is not Anti-German-American Bund. It is "Antifa." For a reason. Maybe "Antifa" just flows better.
 

JDCrimson

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It will be too late by then, you eating crow will not be much solace. I have friends and coworkers right now saying they voted for Trump now saying i didnt vote for this, i didnt know it would be like this. And because we are friends, I tell them you were warned and chose to disregard the warnings. Now here we are.

Bolshevik.

You continue to conflate the rhetorical device and reality.
Do you really think Trump has the intellectual capacity to develop a political ideology? Hitler and Mussolini, while both twisted, at least had something like an ideology. Twisted and ugly and based on false premises, but at least somewhat coherent. I doubt Trump even could tell you what an ideology is.
I promise, if Trump starts shoving people into gas chambers, invades and occupies Canada or Mexico ("Por que no los dos?"), I will come to Tidefans Nonsports and admit I was wrong.
Maybe they will allow you to read Tidefans Nonsports from your concentration camp.
 
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some_al_fan

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Do you really think Trump has the intellectual capacity to develop a political ideology? Hitler and Mussolini, while both twisted, at least had something like an ideology. Twisted and ugly and based on false premises, but at least somewhat coherent. I doubt Trump even could tell you what an ideology is.
I promise, if Trump starts shoving people into gas chambers, invades and occupies Canada or Mexico ("Por que no los dos?"), I will come to Tidefans Nonsports and admit I was wrong.
Maybe they will allow you to read Tidefans Nonsports from your concentration camp.
What ideology does Putin have? Xi Jinping?
I think there could be a difference between the 21st century and the 20th century. The 21st century is less about pure ideology and more about pragmatic parts of fascism.
Would you have any objections if we picked Britt’s 14 characteristics of fascism as the definition of fascism? https://osbcontent.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/PC-00466.pdf

Trump is trying to lead America towards the same path as Putin & Xi, i.e., the path that matches most or all “characteristics of fascism” in the above article.
 
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