Charlie Kirk Part III

jthomas666

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Bolshevik.

You continue to conflate the rhetorical device and reality.
Do you really think Trump has the intellectual capacity to develop a political ideology? Hitler and Mussolini, while both twisted, at least had something like an ideology. Twisted and ugly and based on false premises, but at least somewhat coherent. I doubt Trump even could tell you what an ideology is.
I promise, if Trump starts shoving people into gas chambers, invades and occupies Canada or Mexico ("Por que no los dos?"), I will come to Tidefans Nonsports and admit I was wrong.
Let's see...
Trump says he wants to be a dictator
He says he wants to punish his enemies.
He says media that badmouth him should be punished.

That by itself? Sure, rhetoric.

But, his IS drawing more power to himself, constitution be damned.
He HAS weaponized the DoJ to punish his enemies.
He HAS attacked unfriendly media.
He HAS made absolute loyalty the only qualification for federal position.

That's not just rhetoric--those are actions.

Trump doesn't have to have the mental capacity to plan it--he's got the Heritage Foundation for that (see Project 2025).
 

92tide

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Let's see...
Trump says he wants to be a dictator
He says he wants to punish his enemies.
He says media that badmouth him should be punished.

That by itself? Sure, rhetoric.

But, his IS drawing more power to himself, constitution be damned.
He HAS weaponized the DoJ to punish his enemies.
He HAS attacked unfriendly media.
He HAS made absolute loyalty the only qualification for federal position.

That's not just rhetoric--those are actions.

Trump doesn't have to have the mental capacity to plan it--he's got the Heritage Foundation for that (see Project 2025).
those things are totally not happening.

by the way, have you heard of chappaquiddick? /s
 

Its On A Slab

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Let's see...
Trump says he wants to be a dictator
He says he wants to punish his enemies.
He says media that badmouth him should be punished.

That by itself? Sure, rhetoric.

But, his IS drawing more power to himself, constitution be damned.
He HAS weaponized the DoJ to punish his enemies.
He HAS attacked unfriendly media.
He HAS made absolute loyalty the only qualification for federal position.

That's not just rhetoric--those are actions.

Trump doesn't have to have the mental capacity to plan it--he's got the Heritage Foundation for that (see Project 2025).
I have to agree. Trump may be an idiot, but he's a useful one to people like Laura Loomer, Stephen Miller, The Heritage Foundation, and others on the extreme/alt right who are pushing this agenda.

Their logo should be the toddler being zip-tied. With the Blackhawk helo and ICE agents rappeling in the background.

This is America today. Making it "great"?
 

TIDE-HSV

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Frankly, I'm not interested in an academic quibble over whether or not Trump's brand of authoritarianism matches up with classic dictionary definitions. If it quacks and duck-walks, then it's a duck, AFAIC. Even Orban has managed to stick a different label on his brand of it. Lord, I'd hate to be a federal judge these days. Hitler managed to make the courts first irrelevant and then perverted to his aims. That's exactly what's going on today. Trump II is much more of a puppet than Trump I was...
 

Bamaro

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People who toss around names like "Hitler" and "Fascist" are just so full of hatred they resort to name calling.

And many of them feel they are intellectuals.

Try to square that kind of mindset...... :rolleyes:
“Every time the radical left Democrats, Marxists, communists, and fascists indict me, I consider it a great badge of honor!” Trump bellowed out during his rally
 

TIDE-HSV

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“Every time the radical left Democrats, Marxists, communists, and fascists indict me, I consider it a great badge of honor!” Trump bellowed out during his rally
Oh, it's OK for him. Seriously, though, Hitler was really the brains, such as they were, behind the German overthrow. Trump isn't smart enough. The brains are Miller, Vought, Bessent and a couple of others. He's just a useful, bumbling tool, who regurgitates whatever the last thing said to him was, between rambling digressions into his long list of grudges...
 
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Tidewater

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What ideology does Putin have? Xi Jinping?
I think there could be a difference between the 21st century and the 20th century. The 21st century is less about pure ideology and more about pragmatic parts of fascism.
Would you have any objections if we picked Britt’s 14 characteristics of fascism as the definition of fascism? https://osbcontent.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/PC-00466.pdf

Trump is trying to lead America towards the same path as Putin & Xi, i.e., the path that matches most or all “characteristics of fascism” in the above article.
I would say that Putin's ideology is Imperial White Russian. Putin directed his advisors to read Ivan Ilyin
Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism
It is a Pan-Slavic, nominally Orthodox Christian, Russian nationalism and imperialism. The "русский мир." These are articulated inter alia in Putin's 2007 Munich Speech and his article on "The Historic Unity of the Russian and Ukrainian People."

As for Xi, I have not read his works, but he seems to be willing to leverage elements of Chinese Communist ideology and the party organization itself plus elements of a liberal economic system (with heavy state intervention) to remain in power for life.

Britt's are pretty much what Slab posted. I think I showed that much of that could apply to the Lincoln Administration. Look ast the criteria again and ask yourself if these also applied to the USSR? Was the USSR also fascist? What about Mao's China?

The problem with Britt's criteria is that the devil's in the details. Are the criteria absolute or relative? For example, the "supremacy of the military." In what way is the US military "supreme" in the United States today? Here is a practical test: Do you think the military wants to furlough all the civil servants? It makes what they do more difficult, so why does the U.S. military simply take over the Capitol and issue a statement, "Okay, shut-down is over. Everyone back to work. The War Department will work out of budget details." So is the US military absolutely supreme or relatively more supreme than it was before?
Fraudulent elections. Virginia is going to hold elections next month. Will you declare now that the elections are fraudulent? Trump is in the White House. Will the 2026 federal elections be fraudulent? When is the fraudulency really going to begin? Or has it begun already? In Nazi Germany, the National Socialists declared the Communist Party (among others) illegal and the Enabling Act ended political opposition. Germany may have held things called elections afterwards, but only Nazi candidates were on the ballot.

So, in general I would accept Britt's criteria but the difficult bit will be in applying them honestly to the situation in the United States.
 

Tidewater

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It will be too late by then, you eating crow will not be much solace. I have friends and coworkers right now saying they voted for Trump now saying i didnt vote for this, i didnt know it would be like this. And because we are friends, I tell them you were warned and chose to disregard the warnings. Now here we are.
Are your passports in order and have you applied to immigrate to New Zealand? If you really believe that Trump is a fascist, then don't you think you have a moral obligation to arm yourself and train for what is coming?
 

pelleas

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I would say that Putin's ideology is Imperial White Russian. Putin directed his advisors to read Ivan Ilyin
Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism
It is a Pan-Slavic, nominally Orthodox Christian, Russian nationalism and imperialism. The "русский мир." These are articulated inter alia in Putin's 2007 Munich Speech and his article on "The Historic Unity of the Russian and Ukrainian People."

As for Xi, I have not read his works, but he seems to be willing to leverage elements of Chinese Communist ideology and the party organization itself plus elements of a liberal economic system (with heavy state intervention) to remain in power for life.

Britt's are pretty much what Slab posted. I think I showed that much of that could apply to the Lincoln Administration. Look ast the criteria again and ask yourself if these also applied to the USSR? Was the USSR also fascist? What about Mao's China?

The problem with Britt's criteria is that the devil's in the details. Are the criteria absolute or relative? For example, the "supremacy of the military." In what way is the US military "supreme" in the United States today? Here is a practical test: Do you think the military wants to furlough all the civil servants? It makes what they do more difficult, so why does the U.S. military simply take over the Capitol and issue a statement, "Okay, shut-down is over. Everyone back to work. The War Department will work out of budget details." So is the US military absolutely supreme or relatively more supreme than it was before?
Fraudulent elections. Virginia is going to hold elections next month. Will you declare now that the elections are fraudulent? Trump is in the White House. Will the 2026 federal elections be fraudulent? When is the fraudulency really going to begin? Or has it begun already? In Nazi Germany, the National Socialists declared the Communist Party (among others) illegal and the Enabling Act ended political opposition. Germany may have held things called elections afterwards, but only Nazi candidates were on the ballot.

So, in general I would accept Britt's criteria but the difficult bit will be in applying them honestly to the situation in the United States.
Thanks. All this is very helpful. Thanks to all who are contributing, actually, to this particular discussion of whether Trump is Fascist or not. Not being a political scientist, I find the issue both important and confusing.

Tidewater, would you be prepared to say that the Trump administration (more confidently perhaps than the narcissist non-ideologue Trump) has, if not Fascist, then more general authoritarian tendencies?

My amateur sense is that the governmental redesign we are experiencing is different not just in degree but in kind from any other US administrative turnover in my 47yo lifetime. But I don't know that Fascist is the right word for it, and I agree that if we use the word "Fascist," we ought not use it in a merely inflammatory but in a technically precise sense.
 
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92tide

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Thanks. All this is very helpful. Thanks to all who are contributing, actually, to this particular discussion of whether Trump is Fascist or not. Not being a political scientist, I find the issue both important and confusing.

Tidewater, would you be prepared to say that the Trump administration (more confidently perhaps than the narcissist non-ideologue Trump) has, if not Fascist, then more general authoritarian tendencies?

My amateur sense is that the governmental redesign we are experiencing are different not just in degree but in kind from any other US administrative turnover in my 47yo lifetime. But I don't know that Fascist is the right word for it, and I agree that if we use the word "Fascist," we ought not use it in a merely inflammatory but in a technically precise sense.
we can just call it sparkling authoritarianism, since it didn't come from the facsi region of italy
 
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Tidewater

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Thanks. All this is very helpful. Thanks to all who are contributing, actually, to this particular discussion of whether Trump is Fascist or not. Not being a political scientist, I find the issue both important and confusing.

Tidewater, would you be prepared to say that the Trump administration (more confidently perhaps than the narcissist non-ideologue Trump) has, if not Fascist, then more general authoritarian tendencies?

My amateur sense is that the governmental redesign we are experiencing are different not just in degree but in kind from any other US administrative turnover in my 47yo lifetime. But I don't know that Fascist is the right word for it, and I agree that if we use the word "Fascist," we ought not use it in a merely inflammatory but in a technically precise sense.
I think authoritarian is a fair word to describe Trump's Administration. Barack "I have a phone and I have a pen" Obama also had authoritarian tendencies.
The decision to not act is itself a decision. When the legislature says, "no," that is a legislative decision. Samuel Huntingdon described the United States under the Constitution as the last feudal political arrangement in world history. I would go a step further (having read Elliot's Debates). The people of the states created the federal government and told it: "We are your masters. You are our servant. You may handle these matters and you may not handle any others." Then they delegated certain enumerated powers to their servant. The servant subsequently engaged in treason, rebelling against those limitations and attacking its sovereigns. Since then, every administration has taken more and more steps toward authoritiarianism. As Jefferson warned, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
Trump's innovation has been to ignore the legislature entirely, issue executive orders, and then adjudicate in federal courts. He wins some. He loses some. I do not like it. I find the "Nazi" appellation to by hyperbolic.

In crafting PSYOPs products, analysts start with "What do we want the target audience to do?" They move on to "how can we paint a picture that will cause the target audience to do what we want them to do? What media and programs can we use to paint that picture?"
The Democrats and Democratic party loyalists are the ones screaming "Nazi" and "fascist." And what do they suggest you do about the situation? Emigrate? Grab a gun and head for the hills? Why, no. Vote for Democrats of course. Now, using the PSYOP product development process, reverse engineer that. It seems rather self-serving. They are manipulating people.
 

pelleas

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I think authoritarian is a fair word to describe Trump's Administration. Barack "I have a phone and I have a pen" Obama also had authoritarian tendencies.
The decision to not act is itself a decision. When the legislature says, "no," that is a legislative decision. Samuel Huntingdon described the United States under the Constitution as the last feudal political arrangement in world history. I would go a step further (having read Elliot's Debates). The people of the states created the federal government and told it: "We are your masters. You are our servant. You may handle these matters and you may not handle any others." Then they delegated certain enumerated powers to their servant. The servant subsequently engaged in treason, rebelling against those limitations and attacking its sovereigns. Since then, every administration has taken more and more steps toward authoritiarianism. As Jefferson warned, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
Trump's innovation has been to ignore the legislature entirely, issue executive orders, and then adjudicate in federal courts. He wins some. He loses some. I do not like it. I find the "Nazi" appellation to by hyperbolic.

In crafting PSYOPs products, analysts start with "What do we want the target audience to do?" They move on to "how can we paint a picture that will cause the target audience to do what we want them to do? What media and programs can we use to paint that picture?"
The Democrats and Democratic party loyalists are the ones screaming "Nazi" and "fascist." And what do they suggest you do about the situation? Emigrate? Grab a gun and head for the hills? Why, no. Vote for Democrats of course. Now, using the PSYOP product development process, reverse engineer that. It seems rather self-serving. They are manipulating people.
Good, thanks. So Trump is the most recent human face on the Jeffersonian law that government erodes liberty, and our main hope that that law could be resisted would be convinced and knowledgeable republican ideologues firmly in political power but devoted to conceding power back to their masters against the felt interest of the servants/government?
 
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Tidewater

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Good, thanks. So Trump is the most recent human face on the Jeffersonian law that government erodes liberty, and our main hope that that law could be resisted would be convinced and knowledgeable republican ideologues firmly in political power but devoted to conceding power back to their masters against the felt interest of the servants/government?
There is not much hope of that. No party in DC has any interest in reducing the size and scope of federal power. Republicans just want it oriented in different way from the Democrats.
It would take multiple election cycles of a party truly dedicated to reducing the size and scope of federal power before the two current parties might learn to stop sticking their fork into the electric socket.
I just do not see that happening. Nobody promising to do less ever wins in the United States.

Eventually, the debt will put an end to the process. I feel like Hari Seldon, at least trying to get the history right for subsequent generations so they can construct another polity that avoids these pitfalls.
 

UAH

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Oh, it's OK for him. Seriously, though, Hitler was really the brains, such as they were, behind the German overthrow. Trump isn't smart enough. The brains are Miller, Vought, Bessent and a couple of others. He's just a useful, bumbling tool, who regurgitates whatever the last thing said to him was, between rambling digressions into his long list of grudges...
My simple assessment of the difference between Hitler and his close staff was the understanding that they needed to create jobs to pull Germany out of the Weimar era depression. Thus the Autobahn and the development of the steel industry (for example) to support the military build up. This along with the various indoctrination programs.

Trump on the otherhand with his tarriff absolutism threatens the underpinnings of the entire US and Western economies.
 
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Bodhisattva

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I find this modern national discourse to be perversely entertaining. For as long as I've studied (in the classroom and in interaction) politics, constitutional law, economics, etc., I have been stuck by how the federal government has increased its role in our lives. Mostly, the authoritarianism moves at a creeping pace. Occasionally (e.g., Lincoln, FDR, LBJ, Biden, Trump) federal power expands rapidly. Sometimes it's naked aggression. Most of the time it's done due to a "crisis." However, when the "crisis" is over, government never retreats to it's previous levels.

Using a sports analogy, what the feds are legitimately allowed to do could fit in a hockey goal. Now, what the feds are (unjustifiably) allowed to do fits in a soccer goal, and the goalkeeper is nowhere to be found.

One thing that can be counted on is that the tribalists will decry expanding government when it's not their guy in power. Yet, when it's their turn, they'll justify all manner of unconstitutional government like an Auburn fan claiming only their athletics program is pure and noble and good in the face of all contrary evidence. How much scholarship and personal experience have been provided on this board by various people to show how government ignores the Constitution and sound economics, only to have these obvious examples not only ignored but mocked by the big government tribalists? The answer is almost all the time.

Regarding the Constitution, what the federal government is justified in doing is hardly the same as what you like the federal government to do. Misusing the commerce clause and the taxing authority language in the Constitution as an excuse to allow the feds to do almost anything is hardly honest. Economic protectionism is good when your guy does it but bad when the other team does it. Deficit spending is a disaster when the other guy does it but an "investment" when your guy does it. The "I like it when other people pay my bills" economic policy is hardly a sound or intellectually honest one. Militarily, when your guy engages in violent foreign entanglements, it's noble and totally worth the lost blood and treasure. When the other guy does it, it's the worst thing ever.

So, I'm not persuaded by the crocodile tears. When it's the Dems turn, will they roll back the expansive roll of the federal government seen under this administration? Will their fanboys want them to? Of course they won't. And of course they won't. When it is the Dems turn, their abuse of power and spending insanity will be for the best of reasons, right?

But, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. Perhaps the people that are upset at the federal power grab will continue to notice when their side does it. It's been happening for the 35+ years I've been paying attention to the takeover.

 
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CrimsonJazz

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I find this modern national discourse to be perversely entertaining. For as long as I've studied (in the classroom and in interaction) politics, constitutional law, economics, etc., I have been stuck by how the federal government has increased its role in our lives. Mostly, the authoritarianism moves at a creeping pace. Occasionally (e.g., Lincoln, FDR, LBJ, Biden, Trump) federal power expands rapidly. Sometimes it's naked aggression. Most of the time it's done due to a "crisis." However, when the "crisis" is over, government never retreats to it's previous levels.

Using a sports analogy, what the feds are legitimately allowed to do could fit in a hockey goal. Now, what the feds are (unjustifiably) allowed to do fits in a soccer goal, and the goalkeeper is nowhere to be found.

One thing that can be counted on is that the tribalists will decry expanding government when it's not their guy in power. Yet, when it's their turn, they'll justify all manner of unconstitutional government like an Auburn fan claiming only their athletics program is pure and noble and good in the face of all contrary evidence. How much scholarship and personal experience have been provided on this board by various people to show how government ignores the Constitution and sound economics, only to have these obvious examples not only ignored but mocked by the big government tribalists? The answer is almost all the time.

Regarding the Constitution, what the federal government is justified in doing is hardly the same as what you like the federal government to do. Misusing the commerce clause and the taxing authority language in the Constitution as an excuse to allow the feds to do almost anything is hardly honest. Economic protectionism is not good when your guy does it but bad when the other team does it. Deficit spending is not a disaster when the other guy does it but an "investment" when your guy does it. The "I like it when other people pay my bills" economic policy is hardly a sound or intellectually honest one. Militarily, when your guy engages in violent foreign entanglements, it's noble and totally worth the lost blood and treasure. When the other guy does it, it's the worst thing ever.

So, I'm not persuaded by the crocodile tears. When it's the Dems turn, will they roll back the expansive roll of the federal government seen under this administration? Will their fanboys want them to? Of course they won't. And of course they won't. But, when it is the Dems turn, their abuse of power and spending insanity will be for the best of reasons, right?

But, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. Perhaps the people that are upset at the federal power grab will continue to notice when the other side does it. It's been happening for the 35+ years I've been paying attention to the takeover.
Post of the Year candidate right here. You know, one would think the whole Nazis vs Commies thing would have played out a hell of a long time ago, but just look how effective it is. No wonder they brought it back. I've gotten to the point that whenever I hear (or read) the words "Fascist" or "Communist" I simply dismiss the head that's making all that noise and get on with my life. I don't even debate them anymore.

I still remember trying to reason with the Tea Party people who were absolutely convinced that Obama was a Communist. I might as well have been arguing with a sea turtle. Obama was (and is) a deeply flawed person, but a Communist he was not. And here I am, seeing the same silliness with a new coat of paint. And both sides will continue to insist their preferred emperor is, indeed, fully clothed. This is why I struggle so much to find the incentive to vote, even if my vote is going to be an uncounted "protest vote" against the establishment.
 

TIDE-HSV

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My simple assessment of the difference between Hitler and his close staff was the understanding that they needed to create jobs to pull Germany out of the Weimar era depression. Thus the Autobahn and the development of the steel industry (for example) to support the military build up. This along with the various indoctrination programs.

Trump on the otherhand with his tarriff absolutism threatens the underpinnings of the entire US and Western economies.
I always hark back to his marginal note to a speech when he was running back in 2016 - "TRADE IS BAD!" He said it; he believes it, just as when he said recently that "tariff" is the most beautiful word in the English language. It's amazing that Hitler had the mess of the Weimar to work with and Trump has managed it in a stable country. Of course, Hitler had only Europe in a relatively non-integrated world, although he could have eventually affected the entire world. Trump inherited a world so centered on the US that, when we catch a cold, the entire world sneezes...
 
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