How is the church (Christian Church) suppose to operate without tithes?

Bamabuzzard

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Many times Christians forget the money and increases they have in their lives are simply God's that He graciously allows us to have and only requires 10% of it back for the Church and allows us to keep 90%. It is something that wasn't ours to begin with. But somewhere down the road we have begun to think we are giving "OUR MONEY" to God when in reality that is not the case. "Man" is an arrogant, self serving being.

Much like in the book of Malachi we are not much different today...


I think it comes down to a matter of the heart do we give out of obligation (the church will take it) or do you worship in giving. This is where the church has made a big mistake in our service time. It is now more of a transition in the service or tacked on to the service. In the Old Testament when he tithe was gathered and sacrifice made it was a time of celebration. I think the offering time in our service should be done with a better attitude of worship.
 

bamacon

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Even though the word tithe is not used in the New Testament we have to remember that Jesus came to full fill the law not to destroy the law. I take this to mean in part that Jesus made all things complete therefore the tithe is still part of our calling/responsibility.
The tithe was a custom held by Jews. It does NOT apply to New Testament Christians. It involved giving a tenth of all their possessions the flock, the harvest etc. Col. 2:14 discusses what happened to Mosaical Law in very clear terms.
 

disneybama

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Many times Christians forget the money and increases they have in their lives are simply God's that He graciously allows us to have and only requires 10% of it back for the Church and allows us to keep 90%. It is something that wasn't ours to begin with. But somewhere down the road we have begun to think we are giving "OUR MONEY" to God when in reality that is not the case.....
Careful that you don't look too deeply into this philosophy. After all, it can be applied much more broadly.

We are part of a collective, and nothing that we have is really ours, as everything that we have, we have as a result of our involvement as a part of the collective. You may find that the rationale that you use to encourage others to give back to God is exactly the same as that used to implement collective policy.

If everything that we have is a gift, then nothing is mine, and I shouldn't be offended when my benefactors ask for their share. Because, just as surely as God may have provided, He used the United States to so provide.

What would we have if God had provided us with parents in another part of the world? What is really ours?
 

Bamabuzzard

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I'm not. You are taking it to a level that I never intended to take it.


Careful that you don't look too deeply into this philosophy. After all, it can be applied much more broadly.

We are part of a collective, and nothing that we have is really ours, as everything that we have, we have as a result of our involvement as a part of the collective. You may find that the rationale that you use to encourage others to give back to God is exactly the same as that used to implement collective policy.

If everything that we have is a gift, then nothing is mine, and I shouldn't be offended when my benefactors ask for their share. Because, just as surely as God may have provided, He used the United States to so provide.

What would we have if God had provided us with parents in another part of the world? What is really ours?
 

Bamabuzzard

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No. IMO God is the creator of the universe, this world and all human kind. He created this world and He holds it together. He provides people with the skills, means, talents, opportunities etc. to make a living, make good choices, bad choices and everything in between. For those that are unfortunate to be born without the physical or mental skills to make it on their own God has provided there as well. The people with the talent and the skills and the desire to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves. But the entire purpose for "man" being created was to have a relationship with God. He created us FOR HIM. Not the other way around.

I am not smart enough nor have been given the ability to answer all the why's and why not's of God. But what I do know is that no matter what "good" comes my way or by whom it comes. Ultimately it was from God. And many times when "bad" comes my way it was from Him as well. For purpose that at the time I may not understand but have faith that it is for His greater purpose in my life.


So you agree with the philosophy only so far as it helps you achieve your agenda?
 

bamanut_aj

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I am not smart enough nor have been given the ability to answer all the why's and why not's of God. But what I do know is that no matter what "good" comes my way or by whom it comes. Ultimately it was from God. And many times when "bad" comes my way it was from Him as well. For purpose that at the time I may not understand but have faith that it is for His greater purpose in my life.

James 1:13 (King James Version)

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:



He may allow it happen, but careful not to confuse God and Satan....God and sin cannot coexist, so it wouldn't make sense for him to send sin, evil, etc. our way.
 

disneybama

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James 1:13 (King James Version)

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


He may allow it happen, but careful not to confuse God and Satan....God and sin cannot coexist, so it wouldn't make sense for him to send sin, evil, etc. our way.
I think he meant misfortune, not evil.
 

CaliforniaTide

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To me, my issue with the OP's example is that the couple making the distinction between the Old and New Testament. God created both as the Word. Thus, anything that is written in the Word is to taken as God's command on that particular issue. There should be no distinction on Old/New Testament.

Now, there are certain things where the Old Testament says we should do, and Jesus in the New Testament says we do not have to - you go with the "final" statement on the issue.

As for tithing, it's always been my understanding that you tithe to give to the church. That is one of our obligations to the church.
 

JAXFLBAMAFAN

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The church is the "bride of Christ". You say the church is not necessary? Try telling the son of God his bride has no value. Even better, try telling YOUR bride she is not necessary and see where that gets you!:):eek2:
 

JAXFLBAMAFAN

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Jesus died to purchase HIS church, not some man's church, his church. That's the problem today most people want a church thats named after some man or doctrine but they don't want Jesus' name anywhere near it. Take a look at the names of the church's in your neighborhood.

You say there is nothing in a name? What if your wife liked your neighbors name better than yours and changed here name to his?

I will agree that there is nothing in a name IF there is nothing in the name.

I submit that that is not true of the name that Christians honor. Jesus Christ
 

Bamabuzzard

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That verse is meaning God does not tempt someone into committing sin. It doesn't mean God doesn't or cannot bring calamity in your life. He put the Israelites into slavery for 400 years for continual disobedience. He Himself ensured that happened. But no, God doesn't tempt someone into committing sin. But He does TEST one's faith.

Satan cannot do anything without God's permission. Satan had to approach the throne to get permission to inflict Job. Jesus told Peter that Satan was REQUESTING to sift him like wheat. God is in control of all. Call it what you will. "Allow" or "make" happen but in the end God controls all. Nothing happens or doesn't happen that doesn't cross His throne first.



Isaiah 45: 5-7
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


James 1:13 (King James Version)

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:



He may allow it happen, but careful not to confuse God and Satan....God and sin cannot coexist, so it wouldn't make sense for him to send sin, evil, etc. our way.
 
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crimsonaudio

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Churches (The physical buildings and such) exist at the will of the members, if the members do not tithe then the church will cease to exist.
Correction - the church BUILDING will cease to exist. The early church met in people's homes, and in fact the earliest example we have of a dedicated Christian church building came some 300 years after Jesus's death.

Tons of churches exist and thrive today without physical facilities - they simply meet in each others' homes.

On a side note, how much should a Preacher earn? What other positions are paid and why (I know my answer but what about yours)? There are issues other than members not tithing causing churches problems and those mismanagement issues are the reason some members do not tithe.
Worth noting that there are no paid preachers in the NT. Paul does call on some churches to raise money for his missionary work, but he also makes the point that when he's with a church he pulls his own weight, working to earn his keep.

The modern 'full time' minister is just that - a modern creation.
 

uafan4life

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Being married to a pastor I find this conversation quite interesting. My husband has just finished a series of sermons on tithing. The parable of the rich young ruler who was required to give his all and the widow who gave her all are pointing towards the tithe. You also see it in the lives of the churches that Paul and other disciples started, the new believers gave to support the work and the workers. Paul was also bi-vocational in his ministry.

Even though the word tithe is not used in the New Testament we have to remember that Jesus came to full fill the law not to destroy the law. I take this to mean in part that Jesus made all things complete therefore the tithe is still part of our calling/responsibility.

In regards to how much do you pay the pastor/staff. In our life we have never refused a call based on the salary - there has even been a time when we took a cut in pay to accept a church because we felt that was the direction the Lord was leading. Scripture teaches us we are to be servants worthy of hire, this applies to both church and secular employment. The stories I could tell about attitudes on this subject. :)

I agree too with those that have stated as long as we are faithful in our tithes we have never gone without, there have been times when there was no surplus but all needs and financial obligations have been met.

I think it comes down to a matter of the heart do we give out of obligation (the church will take it) or do you worship in giving. This is where the church has made a big mistake in our service time. It is now more of a transition in the service or tacked on to the service. In the Old Testament when he tithe was gathered and sacrifice made it was a time of celebration. I think the offering time in our service should be done with a better attitude of worship.
I'm always amazed at the number of people, especially self-proclaimed Bible scholars such as pastors and preachers, that read that verse and take away the exact opposite meaning that it should have.

The Old Law was a law, but there is a reason that your Bible lists the Old Testament and New Testament. It is because the law was a part of the Testament, the covenant, the contract.

What does it mean if I say that a person doesn't want to destroy a contract, but that they want to fulfill it? It has the exact opposite meaning of what you portray that verse to have.

Let's say that I have a contract with you to pay you $10,000 to replace 5,000 light bulbs, and the terms of the contract state that you only get paid after all the light bulbs have been changed. If you only replace 3,482 light bulbs, do you get the $10,000? No, you don't. In fact, you don't get any money at all.

Now, let's say that you replace 3,482 light bulbs and then come and tell me that you can't do any more. Because of the terms of the contract, I don't have to give you any money. However, I can choose to destroy the contract. I can tear the contract up, choose not to hold you to the terms of the contract, and give you money. I also, though, can choose to fulfill the contract. I can replace the rest of the light bulbs myself. Once all the light bulbs have been changed, the terms of the contract have been met, and I give you the $10,000.

That's the difference between destroying the contract, or the law, and fulfilling it. There is, however, one commonality between the two ends: after both the contract is now null and void, and you are not bound to the terms of the contract.

Anyone under the new contract, the new covenant, the new testament, etc. is not bound by the terms of the old contract, i.e. the commandments of the old law. We are not bound to tithe.

Now, there is a difference between whether you should do something and whether you have to. Regardless, there is no commandment for Christians to tithe, only for the Jews. You may choose to tithe, but you are not required to by scripture.

If your "church" (i.e. congregation) requires you to tithe, then they do so of their own accord and you are required to tithe by your congregation and not by God.

There is a scriptural example of the early church collecting money to aid others - the reference to Paul that collections be made ahead of time so that there needn't be a special collection when he comes. However, there is no example, either in scripture, in Christian writings, or in secular history of the early church requiring any sort of giving, much less tithing.
 
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crimsonaudio

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As for tithing, I think it's often overvalued - we're to give of our first-fruits to God in a show of appreciation for His blessing. What Jesus brought us was a freedom from the ritualistic, prescribed aspects of the Old Law, which is why tithing isn't taught in the NT, but rather loosely alluded to.

IOW, the percentage isn't what matters, it's the motivation (heart) behind it.
 

TideEngineer08

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uafan4life, thank you. Very well said. I wanted to comment, but couldn't find the words. Fulfilled means that it is done, finished, over.

To say or teach otherwise is to cheapen the life and sacrafice of Christ.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Here's my question(s). What would happen if every believer that attended church stopped giving? Would the church be better off to move back into homes, get rid of the full time preachers, song leaders, programs the local churches normally offer kids, etc?
 

disneybama

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Here's my question(s). What would happen if every believer that attended church stopped giving? Would the church be better off to move back into homes, get rid of the full time preachers, song leaders, programs the local churches normally offer kids, etc?
No one suggested that people stop giving - they just question the tithe.
 

Bamabuzzard

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No, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying people in the thread are saying to stop giving. I'm saying what if believers exercised their freedom to not "have to" give money to the church. What would the church be like and would it be more effective than it currently is?

No one suggested that people stop giving - they just question the tithe.
 

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