Russia Invades Ukraine XIX

With Trump not supporting NATO and mostly looking to appease Putin and turn over so many unnecessary concessions on Ukraine... You are spot on.
Trump wouldn't be like this if there wasn't a reason, though. Gen-X is the last generation that grew up with any fear of the Russians (and that was mostly short-lived. In 1989, all I cared about was chasing skirts.) As the years went by and we found out the truth regarding the threat the Soviets actually posed during the Cold War (little to none) a lot of people got really, really angry about it.

For a lot of people older than me, peace with Russia had about as much appeal as a cold turd sandwich. This was (and continues to be) utterly mind-boggling to me. There is no question in my mind that any attempt at real peace with Russia will be sabotaged by bad faith actors in both countries. ☹️
 
Trump wouldn't be like this if there wasn't a reason, though. Gen-X is the last generation that grew up with any fear of the Russians (and that was mostly short-lived. In 1989, all I cared about was chasing skirts.) As the years went by and we found out the truth regarding the threat the Soviets actually posed during the Cold War (little to none) a lot of people got really, really angry about it.

For a lot of people older than me, peace with Russia had about as much appeal as a cold turd sandwich. This was (and continues to be) utterly mind-boggling to me. There is no question in my mind that any attempt at real peace with Russia will be sabotaged by bad faith actors in both countries. ☹️

For the Boomer generation, peace with Russia/USSR was detente, and peace through strength. MADD. The Oval Office always had a phone main-lined to the Kremlin to avoid confrontations. We had SALT treaties to try to keep the nuke option within reasonable limits.

What we have now is a 100% appeasement attitude. If we just allow Putin's Russia to have this territory, he will stop his aggression. Oh, and when he doesn't stop there, we will try to "make a deal". And Putin sits there grinning, playing 3D chess to he current administration's checkers.

It's a defeatism that has failed before in dealing with thuggish national leaders(Chamberlain's ghost is staring at us). Ukraine will never accept the appeasement because its leaders know what comes next.
 
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For the Boomer generation, peace with Russia/USSR was detente, and peace through strength. MADD. The Oval Office always had a phone main-lined to the Kremlin to avoid confrontations. We had SALT treaties to try to keep the nuke option within reasonable limits.

What we have now is a 100% appeasement attitude. If we just allow Putin's Russia to have this territory, he will stop his aggression. Oh, and when he doesn't stop there, we will try to "make a deal". And Putin sits there grinning, playing 3D chess to he current administration's checkers.

It's a defeatism that has failed before in dealing with thuggish national leaders(Chamberlain's ghost is staring at us). Ukraine will never accept the appeasement because its leaders know what comes next.
Well sure, I don't think anyone is advocating that Russia get to do whatever it wants, when it wants. The whole point of a peace deal is that everyone leaves the table kinda satisfied, but not really. Russia knows it doesn't want war with us and they know that we know they don't want war. More importantly, if Putin is as smart as I think he is, he knows that there are elements in the U.S. that get instantaneous erections at the very notion of war with Russia. (Sometimes I wonder if he is forgetting this at times.)

And speaking of forgetting, lets not forget that Putin pulled this stunt during the autopen administration and I image he did so for a reason, but the larger point is this: this thing has essentially been a stalemate for over 3 years. If Ukraine can hold them off for that long, the notion that Russia can take control of Europe by itself is laugh-out-loud ridiculous. The idea that Russia is a threat to us is bat-crappery of the highest order.
 
BREAKING: President Trump and Special Envoy Witkoff’s 28-point peace plan for Ukraine has been released, per Axios

One major detail: it would require Ukraine to have elections within 100 DAYS of signing

Zelensky has refused to hold elections since the war began.

$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be used to rebuild and invest in Ukraine, with the U.S. receiving a 50% profit share in this.

 
Key point from a senior U.S. official, per WSJ, on the version of Trump’s peace plan that Ukraine published https://wsj.com/world/u-s-peace-plan-for-ukraine-faces-resistance-from-europe-and-kyiv-0f2bb501


G6Q64e1W8AAYPld


Now why would these guys want to avoid an audit of the aid received? I can't think of a single reason.
 
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For the Boomer generation, peace with Russia/USSR was detente, and peace through strength. MADD. The Oval Office always had a phone main-lined to the Kremlin to avoid confrontations. We had SALT treaties to try to keep the nuke option within reasonable limits.

What we have now is a 100% appeasement attitude. If we just allow Putin's Russia to have this territory, he will stop his aggression. Oh, and when he doesn't stop there, we will try to "make a deal". And Putin sits there grinning, playing 3D chess to he current administration's checkers.

It's a defeatism that has failed before in dealing with thuggish national leaders(Chamberlain's ghost is staring at us). Ukraine will never accept the appeasement because its leaders know what comes next.

I have tempered my opinion on Chamberlain’s appeasement policy over my shift in politics and my understanding of pre war military capabilities of all players involved. I think what Chamberlain did actually makes logical sense when you consider that the only two armies that could contend with Germany on the mainland were the French and Soviets. The French were very much against calling Hitler’s bluff at the time and it would almost certainly be the British calling it with the French in protest. Also consider Mussolini was a check on Hitler early on in his quest to overturn Versailles with his first attempt on Austria. So there was some rational belief that he would check him on anything really crazy. Plus you had the Soviets to the east. So giving him the Sudetenland wasn’t as stupid and shortsided as Churchill apologists and American revisionists want to twist it. It really made it clear to Hitler and to the world that any further aggression would be an act of war. What no one saw coming was Hitler and Stalin creating a secret agreement. No one absolutely no one saw that coming.

So chamberlain did at Munich was completely rational with what he was working with. However, what chamberlain and the French did after Hitler’s invasion of Poland is where I do criticize Chamberlain. Slow mobilization and slow decision making led to the fall of France. The Wehrmacht was a hastily put together force and if it ever stalled with its invasion to the west then it would have been doomed before it could have really made any real headway.

The Allies should have either enforced Versailles to the letter, renegotiated it so it was clear any further deviation was a clear act of war, or taken the invasion of Poland more of an immediate threat. But I think the Munich conference itself was more about the French’s unwillingness to check Hitler and less of a sign of Chamberlain’s weakness. He did force Hitler to take off his mask of a statesman and force him to display his true intentions to the world by forcing him to agree that the Sudatenland was the final issue. There is a reason that Hitler was livid after the final meeting with Chamberlain.
 
Kudos to Axios for presenting the entire text with explanatory notes

Here is the full plan:

The full plan

1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighboring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.
  • Update: A separate document details the terms of the security guarantee. The U.S. and its NATO allies would treat an attack on Ukraine as an attack on the entire "transatlantic community."
6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.
  • Note: Ukraine's army currently has 800,000-850,000 personnel, and had around 250,000 beforethe war, according to a Ukrainian official.
7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.
  • Note: NATO countries including France and the U.K. have been working on separate proposals that would include small numbers of European troops on Ukrainian soil after the war. This plan appears to disregard that possibility.
9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. The U.S. guarantee:
  • The U.S. will receive compensation for the guarantee;
  • If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee;
  • If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked;
  • If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:
  • The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centers, and artificial intelligence.
  • The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernize, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.
  • Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernization of cities and residential areas.
  • Infrastructure development.
  • Extraction of minerals and natural resources.
  • The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:
  • The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.
  • The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centers, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
  • Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.
14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:
  • $100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine;
  • The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.
15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.
  • Note: New START, the last major U.S.-Russia arms control treaty, is due to expire in February.
18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programs in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:
  • Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
  • Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education. (Note: Similar ideas were incorporated into Trump's 2020 Israel-Palestine peace plan).
  • All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.
21. Territories:
  • Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognized as de facto Russian, including by the United States.
  • Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.
  • Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.
  • Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarized buffer zone, internationally recognized as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarized zone.
22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:
  • All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an 'all for all' basis.
  • All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.
  • A family reunification program will be implemented.
  • Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.
25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.
  • Note: This is the same general structure Trump proposed to govern the Gaza peace agreement.
28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.
 
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So does this peace agreement allow Russia to continue it's propaganda war as well as its proxy covert war of terrorism in Europe targeting civilian infrastructure?
 
So
Russia invades Ukraine and captures Crimea
Russia invades Ukrain again and captures more land
Russia pounds Ukraine civilian targets for years
Russia commits war crimes against Ukraine
Russia leans on trump who seems to be agreeable
Russia works out a 'peace' deal with trump that gives more land with zero input from Ukraine
Russia works out a 'peace' deal with trump that 'promises' security to Ukraine with zero input from Ukraine
Sounds like something that Ukrain should be agreeable to :rolleyes:
 
So
Russia invades Ukraine and captures Crimea
Russia invades Ukrain again and captures more land
Russia pounds Ukraine civilian targets for years
Russia commits war crimes against Ukraine
Russia leans on trump who seems to be agreeable
Russia works out a 'peace' deal with trump that gives more land with zero input from Ukraine
Russia works out a 'peace' deal with trump that 'promises' security to Ukraine with zero input from Ukraine
Sounds like something that Ukrain should be agreeable to :rolleyes:

Trump continuing to kowtow to Master Putin. Must have the goods on him...

The art of the deal is to get taken by the Russkies real good like apparently.
 
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I think the biggest compromise for Ukraine right now, and the one that is most reasonable: Accept the lines as they are right now. But zero discussion on what size the Ukrainian military should be, and maybe add a corollary that NATO membership will not happen, but the support from NATO countries will continue unabated. In other words: Peace thru strength.

Unless Russia shows any sign of compromise, I don't see them accepting even part of the above.
 
WOW 😲

If you had been living under a rock since this war began and just now read this "peace deal," you'd assume that Ukraine was the aggressor and cause of all the trouble. They get absolutely punished in this "deal," with Putin and his criminal actions getting barely a slap on the wrist. This thing reads like a love letter to Russia written by Putin's bed buddy Trump.

Resist and fight Zelenski! Show some dignity and respect for your country and refuse to bend the knee to Trump and Putin.

I want his thing to end, but Russia should be the one to pay the higher cost, and they should never be allowed back into the G8, ever.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programs in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:
  • Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
  • Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education. (Note: Similar ideas were incorporated into Trump's 2020 Israel-Palestine peace plan).
  • All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.
Including this is laughable, considering this administration doesn't even follow these guidelines in this country.

This ain't a deal for Ukraine, it is a surrender.
 
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