Some Context (regarding coach DeBoer’s start)

[statgrad96]

I think you’re giving Vandy way too much credit. Certainly Pavia, bringing in Jerry Kill as an offensive consultant and Tim Beck as OC has Vandy performing at a much higher level than years past, but they are still a middle of the pack SEC program. This Vandy team still lost to Georgia State and was tied 14-14 with Ball State going into 4th quarter. A bunch of credit is given to beating NC State (currently near the bottom of the ACC) and Kentucky (a team that just got destroyed by a Billy Napier coached Florida team). This 5-2 Vanderbilt team is likely to finish this season no better than 6-6. Great by Vanderbilt standards, but not what many want to give them credit for being after beating us and Kentucky. Even what I thought was “quality” performance against Missouri in the OT loss now pales when you see Mizzou destroyed by TAMU and struggling to win late against Auburn at home.

Vanderbilt is still Vanderbilt. Better? Yes but little excuses for that loss IMO. I can cut DeBoer a bunch of slack for the loss this past weekend, but Vanderbilt? Not so much.

When did Vandy play NC State? They beat VA Tech...

 

[TDBama78]

There are dynamics on this team that CkD has probably never experienced before and he's doing the best he can with it, this season is the mulligan every new coach gets at a new school.

 

[TideEngineer08]

I'm ok with waiting it out. We don't have much of a choice, do we?

But we're going to have to come to grips with the reality of this situation. This program has been slipping for a few years. Yes we've not seen that in the recruiting rankings, but it has been obvious to anyone willing to be honest with the on the field development of the players. Some of that is due to Coach Saban aging into friendly grandpa status, and some of it is having his best coaching staff (2020) absolutely gutted and not being able to replace them with anything close to the same ability.

Kalen DeBoer is a good coach. He is probably the best hire we could have made at the time. But his method of doing things is so different from Coach Saban's. And what this program probably needed was something akin to the Coach Saban of 2007-2012 or so. But this is who we have, and he will have to build things in his style. This season is probably toast though. We will know whether or not he is the long term answer as we watch the 2025 season play out. Until then, we take our lumps.

And by the way... him NOT being the long term answer is something we DON'T want.

 

[spidermayin]

My personal opinion is that right now, everyone has figured out Milroe and he has hit a ceiling on what he can do. It's just too obvious that after the second half of the UGA game we've had three straight games where three average SEC teams have eaten him up. I don't think he is capable of doing a lot of the things required in a CKD offense so that is why I'm not getting upset with CKD for WHAT we're doing on offense. It is very hard to call plays in a game that you already know the guy you're asking do it, can't.

But I think we're inching closer to a QB change for sure. Outside of obvious improvement this week, the outside pressure to make a change it going to be overwhelming.

I remember when teams figured out Jalen Hurts too. It was frustrating watching Jalen scramble to the right multiple times a game and then throw it away. A change of scenery helped Jalen Hurts develop a little more.

 

[BamaBoySince89]

But his method of doing things is so different from Coach Saban's.

This is beginning to look like a repeat of the post-Bryant years. Everything is judged by CNS without giving the new guy a chance to do it his way. We as a fanbase haven’t learned from the past I guess

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I'm ok with waiting it out. We don't have much of a choice, do we?

But we're going to have to come to grips with the reality of this situation. This program has been slipping for a few years. Yes we've not seen that in the recruiting rankings, but it has been obvious to anyone willing to be honest with the on the field development of the players. Some of that is due to Coach Saban aging into friendly grandpa status, and some of it is having his best coaching staff (2020) absolutely gutted and not being able to replace them with anything close to the same ability.

Kalen DeBoer is a good coach. He is probably the best hire we could have made at the time. But his method of doing things is so different from Coach Saban's. And what this program probably needed with something akin to the Coach Saban of 2007-2012 or so. But this is who we have, and he will have to build things in his style. This season is probably toast though. We will know whether or not he is the long term answer as we watch the 2025 season play out. Until then, we take our lumps.

And by the way... him NOT being the long term answer is something we DON'T want.

We've come a LONG way from beating Miss St by 4 TD's in 2010 and CNS crawling up one side of QB2 AJ McCarron and down the other and spanking Two NC's out of him.

If CNS had been the HC on that INT in the EZ vs the Vols he probably doesn't even flinch and just talks calmly.

 

[colbysullivan]

This is beginning to look like a repeat of the post-Bryant years. Everything is judged by CNS without giving the new guy a chance to do it his way. We as a fanbase haven’t learned from the past I guess

We’re nowhere close to that yet. Even if it does happen, it will have little to do with CKD’s coaching style, and almost entirely because college football as we know it is dead. The players control everything now.

 

[TideEngineer08]

This is beginning to look like a repeat of the post-Bryant years. Everything is judged by CNS without giving the new guy a chance to do it his way. We as a fanbase haven’t learned from the past I guess

Like I said, I'm willing to wait and see.

But where I was going with that comment, and I didn't clarify, was what the program needed was the hardcore Nick Saban approach that Nick Saban himself wasn't doing anymore and hasn't for years. I'm not sure any of the top coaches coach that way anymore.

In light of that, it's going to take a lot more time and it doesn't matter how many 4 and 5 stars are on the roster. Attitudes have to change.

 

[cbi1972]

This is beginning to look like a repeat of the post-Bryant years. Everything is judged by CNS without giving the new guy a chance to do it his way. We as a fanbase haven’t learned from the past I guess

That was so long ago, and CFB was so different, I would be surprised if this lesson were both meaningful and remembered by the majority of the fanbase.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Like I said, I'm willing to wait and see.

But where I was going with that comment, and I didn't clarify, was what the program needed was the hardcore Nick Saban approach that Nick Saban himself wasn't doing anymore and hasn't for years. I'm not sure any of the top coaches coach that way anymore.

In light of that, it's going to take a lot more time and it doesn't matter how many 4 and 5 stars are on the roster. Attitudes have to change.

Look at the Indy 500 going on in Athens and the Barney Fiefs handing out speeding tickets like tic tacs with NOTHING happening from Kirby. Kirby blows a lot of smoke externally but my guess EVEN HE doesn't coach like he coached 10 years ago, because he knows he can't. The little crybabies now have all the leverage and they'll just leave.

 

[colbysullivan]

Look at the Indy 500 going on in Athens and the Barney Fiefs handing out speeding tickets like tic tacs with NOTHING happening from Kirby. Kirby blows a lot of smoke externally but my guess EVEN HE doesn't coach like he coached 10 years ago, because he knows he can't. The little crybabies now have all the leverage and they'll just leave.

Say it with me...because he's not a quarterback.

Wait..no. Say it with me...because college football is dead. Yes, that one.

 

[CB4]

We’re nowhere close to that yet. Even if it does happen, it will have little to do with CKD’s coaching style, and almost entirely because college football as we know it is dead. The players control everything now.

I think this is the biggest difference in what DeBoer stepped into this year and what CNS stepped into in 2007. In 2007, CNS stepped into a situation with a roster lacking quality talent and depth, in addition to some questionable character guys. That had to be solve by taking the lumps in 2007 and build the program “his way. And while DeBoer inherited what many see as more talent, that talent may not dovetail with what he needs to build the program “his way”. Not to mention, he could have the cupboard full of talented players but still have a locker room that stinks from the odor of NIL squabbles and individualism. Something early on, CNS didn’t have to deal with.

For me, this is the separation: As bad as 2007 was with the UL-M loss, there was little doubt among this fanbase that Saban was “in charge”’ and would get it done. The biggest advantage CNS had was knowing this conference and the benefit of coaching and winning a national title in Baton Rouge. He knew the demands of this conference, week in and week out. DeBoer hasn’t had that luxury (so to speak). As @crimsonaudio put it earlier, it appears maybe Coach DeBoer may have felt he “threaded the NIL needle” well enough after the UGA win to think this team had come together. The last several weeks have shown different.

So in 2007, Coach Saban had a talent hurdle. In 2024 DeBoer has the NIL/Portal hurdles to clear. Only time will tell if he can. And certainly we are too early in his tenure to make an objective determination otherwise.

 

[KrAzY3]

when you get mass amounts of change to a group of people who are supposed to be functioning as one unit, this is what you get. Areas of dysfunction until the new staff and new systems settle in. I was hoping for 10-2 and in a perfect world 12-0. But now that I realize we were unable to avoid the inevitable transition curve, I can see us going 9-3 all the way down to 7-5, all depending on where we go from here. But we are definitely a team and program in transition, so it is what it is. So in other words, this is normal.

This is one reason I desperately wanted to keep Saban's defense. It wasn't simply the notion of whether or not it was the best in college football, but pragmatism. The defense took Alabama to the playoffs, it wasn't broken, it worked more than well enough to get the job done. I truly believed this team had a championship shot if you just kept enough pieces together.

Well, here we are and Alabama has the #42 ranked defense and that's the lowest it's been since 2003. I said a lot of times I felt like whoever inherited Alabama was getting a sports car and all they had to do was just not crash it.

Well, either way the wheel is being reinvented, whether or not it was necessary and I think that's probably the debate taking place in a lot of people's minds. These type of struggles are normal for teams that fire their head coach, like the Texas and Georgia examples. They are not necessarily normal for teams that replace a good head coach though. I gave the Les Miles example, well Ryan Day was 3-0 after he stepped in and 13-1, so if you minimize the stuff you talked about and winning immediately certainly is possible.

So, I guess the debate is really whether or not what Saban built was rotten and needed to be rebuilt or if it was solid and just needed a fresh coat of paint. I just watched the documentary on Casa Bonita, where the South Park guys buy a restaurant and end up sinking 40 million into it after thinking less than 10 would do the job, everything was trashed and needed to be replaced. I guess that's the argument here but it raises the stakes when you basically shut things down to remodel.

A lot of people are going to be skeptical of that, and DeBoer who spent two years at his two FBS head coaching stops can't really point to his year three and four jobs to say look at how great the things I built are. So, if it does turn into ths complete rebuild, and the car is in the shop or what have you it really, really has to run incredibly well when it gets out of that shop or people are going to turn pretty fast.

 

[cbi1972]

A lot of people are going to be skeptical of that, and DeBoer who spent two years at his two FBS head coaching stops can't really point to his year three and four jobs to say look at how great the things I built are. So, if it does turn into ths complete rebuild, and the car is in the shop or what have you it really, really has to run incredibly well when it gets out of that shop or people are going to turn pretty fast.

There isn't a point at which you can say the car is 'out of the shop' if your mechanics are always working on it as you are actively competing in a race. Every season is another lap and if you are in the lead at the end of any lap and your mechanics are observing rather than putting out flames, then that's good enough.

 

[Cruloc]

I think this is the biggest difference in what DeBoer stepped into this year and what CNS stepped into in 2007. In 2007, CNS stepped into a situation with a roster lacking quality talent and depth, in addition to some questionable character guys. That had to be solve by taking the lumps in 2007 and build the program “his way. And while DeBoer inherited what many see as more talent, that talent may not dovetail with what he needs to build the program “his way”. Not to mention, he could have the cupboard full of talented players but still have a locker room that stinks from the odor of NIL squabbles and individualism. Something early on, CNS didn’t have to deal with.

For me, this is the separation: As bad as 2007 was with the UL-M loss, there was little doubt among this fanbase that Saban was “in charge”’ and would get it done. The biggest advantage CNS had was knowing this conference and the benefit of coaching and winning a national title in Baton Rouge. He knew the demands of this conference, week in and week out. DeBoer hasn’t had that luxury (so to speak). As @crimsonaudio put it earlier, it appears maybe Coach DeBoer may have felt he “threaded the NIL needle” well enough after the UGA win to think this team had come together. The last several weeks have shown different.

So in 2007, Coach Saban had a talent hurdle. In 2024 DeBoer has the NIL/Portal hurdles to clear. Only time will tell if he can. And certainly we are too early in his tenure to make an objective determination otherwise.

Hopefully the fact that we have a general manager position, something new in college football, we will be in front of things. Right now though, we appear to have a problem that only time will solve. That, and benching Milroe and giving Simpson a shot.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

This is one reason I desperately wanted to keep Saban's defense. It wasn't simply the notion of whether or not it was the best in college football, but pragmatism. The defense took Alabama to the playoffs, it wasn't broken, it worked more than well enough to get the job done. I truly believed this team had a championship shot if you just kept enough pieces together.

I never really understood the excitement people had in getting rid of Saban's defense. I still have hope for Wommack and there have been some positive signs here and there, but if we had last years defense we likely only have 1 loss right now.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

So, I guess the debate is really whether or not what Saban built was rotten and needed to be rebuilt or if it was solid and just needed a fresh coat of paint. I just watched the documentary on Casa Bonita, where the South Park guys buy a restaurant and end up sinking 40 million into it after thinking less than 10 would do the job, everything was trashed and needed to be replaced. I guess that's the argument here but it raises the stakes when you basically shut things down to remodel.

I think Saban smelled enough smoke in the house to get out before it burnt down on him. A lack of discipline and underdevelopment of players crept into Saban's program five years ago. The ongoing conversations before Saban retired were "Why do we keep seeing the same pre-snap penalties, lack of discipline on defense (tackling, being out of position, etc.)?", and "Why are multiple units (OL and DL) that used to be pillars of a Saban team been gone for at least five years?". Those were VERY VERY real issues that we long had been discussing before last season ended. Saban's program started unraveling around 2018 and then the transfer portal and the NIL hit. So he got out before it turned into 8-4 and 9-3 seasons. He KNEW it was time and he got out just in time. Good for him. He owes no explanations to anybody. He did his job now it's time for others to do theirs.

I expect a full reset on offense. We're not seeing anything close to a CKD offense and I've now heard enough and read enough from those who have watched him for years, that lord knows the headache he is probably going through just trying to make it through this season without it completely falling apart. He is going to have to get his type of players in here and I still think once the defensive system gets put in place, it will be very good, especially if they keep recruiting at a high level. It's not like we're running a unicorn defense.

But right now, we're seeing why Saban retired. He stopped having fun and enjoying going to work because what he was working with had fundamentally changed. He'd lost his grip, not only on college football as a whole, but his own program. I'm not saying he'd lost control, but the type of control and influence he was used to having was no longer there. So he chunked us all the deuces and "went to the lake". RTR Coach Saban!

 

[KrAzY3]

I think Saban smelled enough smoke in the house to get out before it burnt down on him. A lack of discipline and underdevelopment of players crept into Saban's program five years ago. The ongoing conversations before Saban retired were "Why do we keep seeing the same pre-snap penalties, lack of discipline on defense (tackling, being out of position, etc.)?", and "Why are multiple units (OL and DL) that used to be pillars of a Saban team been gone for at least five years?". Those were VERY VERY real issues that we long had been discussing before last season ended. Saban's program started unraveling around 2018 and then the transfer portal and the NIL hit. So he got out before it turned into 8-4 and 9-3 seasons. He KNEW it was time and he got out just in time. Good for him. He owes no explanations to anybody. He did his job now it's time for others to do theirs.

I expect a full reset on offense. We're not seeing anything close to a CKD offense and I've now heard enough and read enough from those who have watched him for years, that lord knows the headache he is probably going through just trying to make it through this season without it completely falling apart. He is going to have to get his type of players in here and I still think once the defensive system gets put in place, it will be very good, especially if they keep recruiting at a high level. It's not like we're running a unicorn defense.

But right now, we're seeing why Saban retired. He stopped having fun and enjoying going to work because what he was working with had fundamentally changed. He'd lost his grip, not only on college football as a whole, but his own program. I'm not saying he'd lost control, but the type of control and influence he was used to having was no longer there. So he chunked us all the deuces and "went to the lake". RTR Coach Saban!

This is an interesting analysis, but it actually could bring a lot of risk to DeBoer if it continues to play out like this.

If Alabama was able to continue on a trend of 2, may be even 3 losses each season, fans could go oh this close to being a championship team or what ever, you can keep kind of rolling over expectations and sustain that indefinitely. That wasn't really to Saban's standard (more of a Les Miles standard) but it's generally going to be considered good enough.

The idea that Alabama was broken and needed to be fixed, does potentially buy DeBoer some breathing room. You can kind of say alright fine, even if you lose 4 games this year or what have you, there was something wrong and you had to fix it. The issue is this kind of defers expectations.

This means the following year expectations are even higher, he's supposed to fix what was wrong now, not just replace Saban and sustain things, so 2, 3 losses won't necessarily be indicative of that. It potentially puts him in a very tough spot where people are like hey wait, this guy had Washington in the championship game in year two, what's going on here?

May be that's why he's the guy though, because he has enough of an ego to come in and go yeah I don't like the way things were done, I can do them better but man that's a lot to take on.

 

[mlh]

I kind of feel like we're headed to more parity where 2 losses per year is the norm for the top-tier teams. The goal will be to make the 12 team playoffs rather than an undefeated, conference champion, top seed in the playoffs.

 

[gtgilbert]

Doesn't the coach choose which quarterback to use? Didn't that same quarterback lose only two games last year? The unforgivable loss was to Vanderbilt, and the offense did everything they needed to win that game (35 against Vandy should be enough). In fact the loss was squarely on coaches, who sent two players with the same number out there, prolonging a Vanderbilt drive that lead to a touchdown.

Having said that, why not talk about an example that actually fits? We know another coach that took over for a loaded Nick Saban team in the SEC and he went 11-2. Les Miles ate grass, but he sure didn't have trouble managing Saban's players and in fact he won a title before he had a 3+ loss season.

So, sure as long as DeBoer doesn't lose anymore I won't point fingers, but if he does worse than Les Miles did with similar talent I won't be overly impressed.

not always...