The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I

[CrimsonJazz]

I have met some wonderful people, "give you the shirt off their back for you" kind of people. Then again, I've met some Jews and Muslims who would do the same.
At its best, Christianity inspires by example the best in human nature. At its worst, however, it gives excuses for petty or even vindictive attitudes. ("Those people who want to get green carpeting in the chapel area are evil!" or historically, "If you do not believe in transubstantiation, you are a heretic and I have to kill you!" or "If you say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, you're a heretic and I have to kill you!") That is tragic and, I believe, unChrist-like.

Indeed, we are all grateful that the "conversions by the sword" days are well behind us and never coming back. You make an interesting point regarding charitable people. I had an uncle who was a professional gambler and pawn shop owner. As far as I can tell, he stepped into a church only once in his life and that was his wedding day. He would openly say that he had no need of religion and this earned him the ire of quite a few people in his lifetime.

Nevertheless, he was known as one of the most giving people around. If you were down on your luck, he didn't hesitate to help you eat and find gainful employment from his friends who farmed and otherwise needed a strong back to help them out. He didn't puff his chest out and put on a show with it. He just did what he felt was right and then got on with his life.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

I have met some wonderful people, "give you the shirt off their back for you" kind of people. Then again, I've met some Jews and Muslims who would do the same.
At its best, Christianity inspires by example the best in human nature. At its worst, however, it gives excuses for petty or even vindictive attitudes. ("Those people who want to get green carpeting in the chapel area are evil!" or historically, "If you do not believe in transubstantiation, you are a heretic and I have to kill you!" or "If you say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, you're a heretic and I have to kill you!") That is tragic and, I believe, unChrist-like.

Oh boy, my wife has experienced this crap. Before covid, and at our previous church, she worked as the assistant to the childrens/pre-school minister. This lady was vile. Discounted every opinion or idea my wife had as "the devil coming between us". This minister (who was an ex-nurse turned minister with no actual training, just a church member who got the job) was never wrong, every idea they had was sent to her from God and if you disagreed or just had an idea of your own it was the devil at work.

The staff at this church was nasty and vile. This experience drove my wife to question her faith, and she struggled with suicidal thoughts. Once this was discovered we immediately left that church, and I forced my wife to quit that job. She went to therapy and is better now and we are at a new church that has been great so far. This was eye opening and has made me start questioning the entire idea and need for the modern American "church industry". I have no problem with religion and Christianity but, I think the modern day "church" is mostly ruining it by using the Bible to manipulate people.

 

[Tidewater]

Oh boy, my wife has experienced this crap. Before covid, and at our previous church, she worked as the assistant to the childrens/pre-school minister. This lady was vile. Discounted every opinion or idea my wife had as "the devil coming between us". This minister (who was an ex-nurse turned minister with no actual training, just a church member who got the job) was never wrong, every idea they had was sent to her from God and if you disagreed or just had an idea of your own it was the devil at work.

The staff at this church was nasty and vile. This experience drove my wife to question her faith, and she struggled with suicidal thoughts. Once this was discovered we immediately left that church, and I forced my wife to quit that job. She went to therapy and is better now and we are at a new church that has been great so far. This was eye opening and has made me start questioning the entire idea and need for the modern American "church industry". I have no problem with religion and Christianity but, I think the modern day "church" is mostly ruining it by using the Bible to manipulate people.

Wow. Life is too short and money not valuable enough to put yourself (or your wife) in such a situation. That's terrible.
On the other hand, I have had some wonderful experiences. I went to the Secial Forces Qualification Course with a chaplain, Captain (Chaplain) Tim Willoughby. (Tim was the chaplain at the school and the commander wanted his chaplain to go through what his guys went through, so he sent the chaplain through the course.) We called him "Timbo," Tim+Rambo=Timbo. He was such a great guy. Level-headed. Never got angry. Always encouraging others. Just a great human being. My wife and his wife still stay in contact thirty years after meeting. Sweet lovely people.
Timbo's book is available here . And There I Was: People and Places Along the Journey of an Army Chaplain

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I feel much the same way. I believe my faith and values are stronger but interest in church has diminished. But the church is not feeding me. I believe many churches have lost their way either pursuing an angle of politics, social crusade, or religious entertainment rather than reminding us of our core mission as believers.

Homerun! Many churches have become "Six Flags over Jesus" and as you've stated, lost their way from why believers are to gather.

 

[Tidewater]

Homerun! Many churches have become "Six Flags over Jesus" and as you've stated, lost their way from why believers are to gather.

In the film Sound of Hope: The Story of Possum Trot, families that are members of a small mostly black church in rural east Texas decide to adopt a bunch of troubled kids in foster care. The pastor went to a mostly white church in the Houston area, looking for a bit of financial assistance for the black families adopting the kids. The black folks were willing to do the heavy lifting with bringing up these kids, but kids cost money, so the pastor went to a partner (mostly white) church looking for some financial help.
The white church was planning their next ocean cruise, and other such things of equal frivolity and the black pastor held a mirror up to his white brothers and sisters. Enough of them did not like what they saw and did help out those willing to help less fortunate kids. That, I think is an example of church at its best.

 

[Huckleberry]

Six Years of an Intentional Liberal "Shift" in the SBC - Center for Baptist Leadership

They're Right, There is No "Drift." The Last Three SBC Presidents Purposely Moved the Convention to the Left.

centerforbaptistleadership.org

 

[NationalTitles18]

Six Years of an Intentional Liberal "Shift" in the SBC - Center for Baptist Leadership

They're Right, There is No "Drift." The Last Three SBC Presidents Purposely Moved the Convention to the Left.

centerforbaptistleadership.org

Couldn't finish reading it. Too asinine.

 

[Tidewater]

I think the problem with churches is that they are full or people and people are inherently flawed.

I'm assuming Padreruf responded with the head banging on keyboard emoji because he has lived this. Over and over.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I'm assuming Padreruf responded with the head banging on keyboard emoji because he has lived this. Over and over.

I've heard a quote that said (paraphrasing): "If you lose your faith due to the actions of people your faith was in the wrong place."

 

[4Q Basket Case]

I haven’t lost my faith in God. Due to the actions of a human — the pastor of the last church I was a member of — I did , however, lose my faith in The Church as the best vehicle by which we can do God’s will.

It was a large, wealthy, decidedly non-evangelical, mainline Protestant church in Birmingham. Due to what I did for a living 35 years ago, I had detailed knowledge of a shameful diversion of church resources to the pastor’s pet project.

Even today, I can’t get into the details. I will say only that, while he did divert monies, the pastor didn’t actually commit any crimes. Yes, I know that sounds like a contradiction in terms. You’ll just have to take my word that in this case it wasn’t.

He has since passed. I’m guessing he and St. Peter had an interesting conversation at the gates.

 

[Tidewater]

I haven’t lost my faith in God. Due to the actions of a human — the pastor of the last church I was a member of — I did , however, lose my faith in The Church as the best vehicle by which we can do God’s will.

It was a large, wealthy, decidedly non-evangelical, mainline Protestant church in Birmingham. Due to what I did for a living 35 years ago, I had detailed knowledge of a shameful diversion of church resources to the pastor’s pet project.

Sounds like the plot of the Cary Grant film, The Bishop's Wife.
Big church buildings are nice, but the church should not lose focus when thinking about a big building. (John 21:17)

 

[Its On A Slab]

Homerun! Many churches have become "Six Flags over Jesus" and as you've stated, lost their way from why believers are to gather.

My nascent agnosticism kicked in F/T during the 2004 presidential campaign, when I visited a local Christian bookstore, and it looked like the campaign HQ for Bush/Cheney. The Republican Jesus cult is real. It's on steroids now.

 

[crimsonaudio]

My nascent agnosticism kicked in F/T during the 2004 presidential campaign, when I visited a local Christian bookstore, and it looked like the campaign HQ for Bush/Cheney. The Republican Jesus cult is real. It's on steroids now.

It saddens me that this is true.

 

[Its On A Slab]

It saddens me that this is true.

Some of the "Divine Donald" memes are what I should think as sacreligious. That guy has no religious beliefs. Well, he likes himself a lot.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

My nascent agnosticism kicked in F/T during the 2004 presidential campaign, when I visited a local Christian bookstore, and it looked like the campaign HQ for Bush/Cheney. The Republican Jesus cult is real. It's on steroids now.

I stay away from people and churches who use Jesus as a front for their carnal desires. It is nothing more than a distraction and leads to spiritual starvation. It is also very easy to spot. My family has left churches because of it.

Also, as Crimsonaudio stated about someone losing their faith in Jesus/Christianity because of the behavior of someone who claims to be a Christian. It's like listening to a band cover a song by another band and mutilating it. The original band doesn't suck, it's the band covering the song that sucks.

 

[Its On A Slab]

I stay away from people and churches who use Jesus as a front for their carnal desires. It is nothing more than a distraction and leads to spiritual starvation. It is also very easy to spot. My family has left churches because of it.

Also, as Crimsonaudio stated about someone losing their faith in Jesus/Christianity because of the behavior of someone who claims to be a Christian. It's like listening to a band cover a song by another band and mutilating it. The original band doesn't suck, it's the band covering the song that sucks.

The cult is pretty militant. We had members here back in the day who were part of it. They got offended when I kept referring to the cult as Republican Jesus. I was told to stop, and I didn't.

I was "disappeared" after I transgressed the rule. But I got betta'. They let me back into the asylum.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

The cult is pretty militant. We had members here back in the day who were part of it. They got offended when I kept referring to the cult as Republican Jesus. I was told to stop, and I didn't.

I was "disappeared" after I transgressed the rule. But I got betta'. They let me back into the asylum.

As I said, they're easy to spot. I can spot a zealous political warrior in sheep's clothing a mile away.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

As I said, they're easy to spot. I can spot a zealous political warrior in sheep's clothing a mile away.

Even though the phrase "separation of church and state" appears literally nowhere in any of our foundational documents, it is a concept I support. Not only does it protect the state from influence of the church, it protects the church from influence of the state. I wish more people understood this.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Even though the phrase "separation of church and state" appears literally nowhere in any of our foundational documents, it is a concept I support. Not only does it protect the state from influence of the church, it protects the church from influence of the state. I wish more people understood this.

The FF had enough of the influence of the Church of England.

In Putin's Russia, the Russian Orthodox church is pretty much an organ of the state.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

The FF had enough of the influence of the Church of England.

In Putin's Russia, the Russian Orthodox church is pretty much an organ of the state.

Indeed and while I'm sure they already regretted this immensely, the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has only doubled their misery (at least in Ukraine.)