The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I

[Huckleberry]

The Christian Persecution Narrative Rings Hollow

David French: This June, I was invited on a friend’s podcast to answer a question I’ve been asked over and over again in the Trump era. Are Christians really persecuted in the United States of America? Millions of my fellow evangelicals believe we are, or they believe we’re one election away from a crackdown. This sense of dread and despair helps tie conservative Christians, people who center their lives on the church and the institutions of the church, to Donald Trump — the man they believe will fight to keep faith alive.

As I told my friend, the short answer is no, not by any meaningful historical definition of persecution. American Christians enjoy an immense amount of liberty and power.

But that’s not the only answer. American history tells the story of two competing factions that possess very different visions of the role of faith in American public life. Both of them torment each other, and both of them have made constitutional mistakes that have triggered deep cultural conflict.

NYT gift link

 

[92tide]

this part. the whining about this (among other things) has been relentless going back a long time and it is tedious.

And if conservative Christians are angry at progressive Americans for believing they are hateful hypocrites, then they have only themselves to blame.

 

[Huckleberry]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1826636478707106308

A Tennessee church paid off over $8 million in medical debt for people across the region.

The church canceled thousands of people's debts, both in and out of the congregation.

 

[81usaf92]

I think the problem with churches is that they are full or people and people are inherently flawed.

I think the problem with churches is weak pastors and people who only go to get one word from a book that they never read to justify a fringe belief that they have. I mean seriously… if pastors really talked about what the Bible actually says about people like Trump, how quickly would their congregation disappear.

Seriously the movie “The book of Eli” has it right. The most dangerous weapon next to the human imagination is the Book of God. Because it seems only the scammers and ambitious read it. Because I see too many people misquoting the Bible or twisting it to their own worldview.

 

[Tidewater]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1826636478707106308

A Tennessee church paid off over $8 million in medical debt for people across the region.

The church canceled thousands of people's debts, both in and out of the congregation.

Good on this church.
There was a predominately African-American church in Memphis to which a New Orleans Katrina refugee came, asking for help. The church chipped in and bought the family a house in Memphis.
Then the family sold the house and pocketed the money.
Alleged Katrina Family Sells Memphis Gift House
The "man" of the household told the TV reporter, "Take it up with God."

 

[AWRTR]

My nascent agnosticism kicked in F/T during the 2004 presidential campaign, when I visited a local Christian bookstore, and it looked like the campaign HQ for Bush/Cheney. The Republican Jesus cult is real. It's on steroids now.

I’m really glad I’m a part of a church where the leadership actively avoids this. I would say the vast majority vote Republican but it’s not a topic that’s discussed in services or small groups. We don’t push politicians or political parties. If there is a moral issue in the Bible we speak on it but don’t make it political. It’s really nice.

 

[81usaf92]

I’m really glad I’m a part of a church where the leadership actively avoids this. I would say the vast majority vote Republican but it’s not a topic that’s discussed in services or small groups. We don’t push politicians or political parties. If there is a moral issue in the Bible we speak on it but don’t make it political. It’s really nice.

I think there is a time and a place for it but i think leadership can’t have their cake and eat it too when it comes to playing with politics. Because too often you see leadership wanting to quote the Bible on homosexuality and linking what the Democrats are pushing to Sodom but the second you bring up adultery or being a narcissist they are silent about Trump.

I kinda left my church because the pastor is afraid of losing the congregation more than he is of losing souls to hell. Awhile back half of the “my age group” people left because of church leadership refusing to ban an individual that was accused of a deplorable crime. Now i think we only get “safe” sermons that don’t rile up the Trumpers up. Used to the leadership attacked both sides if there was an attack because they took more of an apolitical approach. But now everything is slanted one way because Trumpers were threatening to leave even before the exodus of young adults.

IDK i just have had a bad time at finding a church that isn’t deep into politics.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

The Young Catholic Women Bringing Back Veils

A new generation of worshippers is longing for a ‘lost type of Catholicism.’

www.thefp.com

Nicole Moore, 30, wears a veil to church every Sunday. Sometimes called a mantilla, these sheer head coverings are usually made of lace or silk; Nicole’s is gray, with a floral-like pattern. Worn by women throughout the Catholic church’s history, chapel veils fell out of favor during the late twentieth century, but in recent years there’s been “an explosion of veiling,” says Moore, who attends St. Vincent Ferrer Catholic Church in Manhattan.

Her pastor, Father Peter Martyr Yungwirth, 39, tells The Free Press he has also noticed an increase in veiling over the last two decades. Indeed, Veils by Lily, a website that sells mantillas, has gone from filling 30 to 60 orders per month to an average of 900 in the last ten years. And it seems to be young Catholics driving the trend. “I have definitely noticed an increase of women, especially young adult women, wearing veils,” says Father Roger Landry, 54, Catholic chaplain of Columbia University. He interprets the veiling trend “as an attempt to be maximally reverent to God at Mass and in receiving Holy Communion.”

This was a truly interesting article to me. It would seem a lot of the younger people out there are sick of the "modernized" church and want to dial it back a little. I don't know if this sort of thing is happening in other denominations or not, but if so, this could be seen as an encouraging sign. The western church has become spiritually bankrupt in many ways. I think this will be worth following.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

I think the problem with churches is weak pastors and people who only go to get one word from a book that they never read to justify a fringe belief that they have. I mean seriously… if pastors really talked about what the Bible actually says about people like Trump, how quickly would their congregation disappear.

Seriously the movie “The book of Eli” has it right. The most dangerous weapon next to the human imagination is the Book of God. Because it seems only the scammers and ambitious read it. Because I see too many people misquoting the Bible or twisting it to their own worldview.

Kinda like the Constitution, isn’t it? People are capable of reading literally anything they want into anything. This type of projection is hardly unique to Bible-readers. Quran-readers can’t seem to figure out if they are the “religion of peace” or the religion of bombing Jews or throwing homosexuals off of buildings. I haven’t the foggiest notion of how to fix this.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I agree wholeheartedly. I was raised in an Evangelical tradition, but Christianity lost all credibility with me when I saw that the landscape had been completed littered with competing denominations, all teaching something different. When I voiced these concerns, people would tell me that yeah, there are some differences, but they all agree on "the important things" (which I eventually discovered isn't true either.)

When I went to college, I minored in world religion at Huntingdon College. There were a LOT of smart people teaching these topics and the more I learned about church history, the more my views started to change a bit. However, it was more academic than personal and it stayed that way for quite some time.

Like everyone else, I've been through a lot of stuff and much of it has started to get my mind pointed toward what happens next. I have a bum ticker and one of these days, I'll simply be gone. Needless to say, this occupies my mind a great deal. I got married again in 2021 and I have dutifully gone to church with my wife every weekend since. This has been a good kick-start back into spirituality.

I've been reading a lot since then, but the catalyst for this thread was a song I heard the other night for the first time called, "I Need a Favor" by a chap named Jelly Roll. While Mr. Roll doesn't know it, this song almost literally knocked me down. I've been thinking very, very hard since. I appreciate your contribution.

when you get to the age when the actuaries estimate your life expectancy in single digits, one does begin to think...

 

[Toddrn]

This thread may bomb, but I thought it would be interesting to have a catch-all thread about churches around the world. As someone who is considering becoming a Christian, I am attracted to news stories about the modern church. Churches are having to change as society changes and this interests me a great deal. It doesn't all have to be doom and gloom and there's already a sex abuse thread for that awful subject. So yeah, good news, bad news, anything discussion-worthy is game. Theology, too, for that matter.

I found this article and my eyebrows raised immediately. If there are any Anglicans here, I'd especially like your take on this:
Church of England dropping word ‘church’ to be more ‘modern’

All I can say is that if you find the perfect church don't join it because it will no longer be perfect. People complain that this church or that one is full of hypocrites, etc. People go to the doctor because they are sick and need to be treated. People go to church because they are sinners and need Jesus. If they were perfect there would be no need to go to church. I've been in church my whole life and the church as a whole needs to get back to basic Bible teaching. You can put lipstick on a pig. But it's still a pig. You can say something is no longer a sin because of the way society has changed. But if the Bible says it's a sin then it is. God's Word never changes.

 

[crimsonaudio]

 

[Huckleberry]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1828814295314083948

“There are those who systematically work to push back migrants. When this is done consciously, it is a grave sin.”
At the General Audience, Pope Francis makes an appeal for each of us to welcome migrants who leave their homes in search of a better life.

https://vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2024-08/pope-francis-general-audience-migrants-dying-deserts-seas.html

 

[dayhiker]

In the film Sound of Hope: The Story of Possum Trot, families that are members of a small mostly black church in rural east Texas decide to adopt a bunch of troubled kids in foster care. The pastor went to a mostly white church in the Houston area, looking for a bit of financial assistance for the black families adopting the kids. The black folks were willing to do the heavy lifting with bringing up these kids, but kids cost money, so the pastor went to a partner (mostly white) church looking for some financial help.
The white church was planning their next ocean cruise, and other such things of equal frivolity and the black pastor held a mirror up to his white brothers and sisters. Enough of them did not like what they saw and did help out those willing to help less fortunate kids. That, I think is an example of church at its best.

This reminds me of the book Same Kind of Different As Me. I really enjoyed that book.

 

[dayhiker]

This showed up in my FB memories today and it seems like it belongs in this discussion too:


"Christians use the Bible like a mace. Disciples use the Bible like a mirror."
- Andy Stanley from his sermon Christian: Loopholes as told on the "Your Move," podcast.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1828814295314083948

“There are those who systematically work to push back migrants. When this is done consciously, it is a grave sin.”
At the General Audience, Pope Francis makes an appeal for each of us to welcome migrants who leave their homes in search of a better life.

https://vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2024-08/pope-francis-general-audience-migrants-dying-deserts-seas.html

Nothing surprising about this. The church has been pro-immigration for as far back as I can remember.

 

[Jon]

The Christian Persecution Narrative Rings Hollow

David French: This June, I was invited on a friend’s podcast to answer a question I’ve been asked over and over again in the Trump era. Are Christians really persecuted in the United States of America? Millions of my fellow evangelicals believe we are, or they believe we’re one election away from a crackdown. This sense of dread and despair helps tie conservative Christians, people who center their lives on the church and the institutions of the church, to Donald Trump — the man they believe will fight to keep faith alive.

As I told my friend, the short answer is no, not by any meaningful historical definition of persecution. American Christians enjoy an immense amount of liberty and power.

But that’s not the only answer. American history tells the story of two competing factions that possess very different visions of the role of faith in American public life. Both of them torment each other, and both of them have made constitutional mistakes that have triggered deep cultural conflict.

NYT gift link

What French misses there is that Christianity itself has a persecution complex, it is built into the faith so of course they feel persecuted. They are told to expect it by their own texts. This shouldn't surprise anyone, preachers have been using these texts to gain "Us against them" power for centuries.

Otherwise good piece

 

[AWRTR]

What French misses there is that Christianity itself has a persecution complex, it is built into the faith so of course they feel persecuted. They are told to expect it by their own texts. This shouldn't surprise anyone, preachers have been using these texts to gain "Us against them" power for centuries.

Otherwise good piece

Christians in the US aren’t persecuted. There may be an isolated incident here or there, but it’s just not a thing. Now when you look at the world as a whole you get a very different picture. There are quite a few countries and regions around the world where Christians are really persecuted.

This is from that known right wing outlet the BBC.

Christian persecution 'at near genocide levels'

The foreign secretary attacks "political correctness" as report warns the religion could "disappear".

www.bbc.com

 

[Its On A Slab]

when you get to the age when the actuaries estimate your life expectancy in single digits, one does begin to think...

I will be 65 in December. I have a little bit of schadenfreude when I check my high school alumni group on Facebook and find people I knew who were gravely ill or have passed away. Me? I'm up at 4AM 2-3 times a week training for a marathon.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I have a little bit of schadenfreude when I check my high school alumni group on Facebook and find people I knew who were gravely ill or have passed away.

Wow, seriously?