Coach Saban's defensive complexity

[BamasRollin]

look i dont want to argue about it, Saban would never call a player out like that and neither will i...

if you cant look at the classes we signed and see that there are a few players that were expected to make huge impacts but haven't played in 3 yrs, all you have to do is go back and watch the pre-season ESPN show they did and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about.... it is what it is, and when Saban is on TV at practice and is constantly having to correct the same players over and over its pretty obvious they just dont "get it"

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

Really??? you want me to start naming the names of players that we signed as 4 & 5 stars that ARE KNOWN to have STRUGGLED with the scheme and thus not playing and some have transferred and some are looking to transfer.... has your head been buried in the sand for the last 3 years??

That's a little over the top.

I know how many players have transferred out, and several are looking at transferring. However, implying they transfered out because of intellect is far enough away from the truth to be laughable and ignores a number of points. Recruiting is a numbers game - some guys work out, some don't. Even in the NFL, where the teams have more resources and more time (4 years of college) to evaluate players, there are guys who don't pan out. Somtimes there are players behind the 4 and 5 star guys that are better, so they transfer for more PT, like Star Jackson who wasn't even on the defensive side of the ball. Sometimes, people don't apply themselves or have attitude problems. You can't just say "players are stupid if they transfer."

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

look i dont want to argue about it, Saban would never call a player out like that and neither will i...

if you cant look at the classes we signed and see that there are a few players that were expected to make huge impacts but haven't played in 3 yrs, all you have to do is go back and watch the pre-season ESPN show they did and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about.... it is what it is, and when Saban is on TV or at practice and, is constantly having to correct the same players over and over its pretty obvious they just dont "get it"

Try interacting regularly with 18 to 21 year old kids. You do have to correct them all the time. What CNS is doing is coaching them... He's even made a point to let folks know that it isn't a bad thing if he spends a lot of time with you at practice, it means he's trying to teach you. Coach Saban nearly removed AJ McCarron's hind quarters during the MSU game this year; that doesn't mean he's stupid...

 

[BamasRollin]

That's a little over the top.

I know how many players have transferred out, and several are looking at transferring. However, implying they transfered out because of intellect is far enough away from the truth to be laughable and ignores a number of points. Recruiting is a numbers game - some guys work out, some don't. Even in the NFL, where the teams have more resources and more time (4 years of college) to evaluate players, there are guys who don't pan out. Somtimes there are players behind the 4 and 5 star guys that are better, so they transfer for more PT, like Star Jackson who wasn't even on the defensive side of the ball. Sometimes, people don't apply themselves or have attitude problems. You can't just say "players are stupid if they transfer."

WHEN DID I EVER USE THE TERM "STUPID"?... now you're just trying to put words in my mouth.... it's only a few players that i'm even referring to... just happens to be some of the highest rated prospects that have EVER signed at Bama, and yet have never played... and i even stated that from the info i've heard the players i'm talking about ARE hard workers and have great attitudes considering the situation... they just can't grasp the scheme well enough to earn Saban's trust and playing time

i can't blame them for leaving... what's the point in staying??? obviously they've been passed over by younger players and have very little chance of ever seeing meaningful playing time... BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN HERE FOR 3 YEARS AND STILL CAN'T GET ON THE FIELD

 

[BamasRollin]

Try interacting regularly with 18 to 21 year old kids. You do have to correct them all the time. What CNS is doing is coaching them... He's even made a point to let folks know that it isn't a bad thing if he spends a lot of time with you at practice, it means he's trying to teach you. Coach Saban nearly removed AJ McCarron's hind quarters during the MSU game this year; that doesn't mean he's stupid...

OMG, seriously, he's coaching them.... thanks for the heads up

oh and BTW the players i'm talking about, that were being constantly corrected for blowing coverages and assignments were also HS All-Americans, rated as some of the top players in the nation, and sat the bench behind True Freshman this year.... go figure

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

OMG, seriously, he's coaching them.... thanks for the heads up

oh and BTW the players i'm talking about, that were being constantly corrected for blowing coverages and assignments were also HS All-Americans, rated as some of the top players in the nation, and sat the bench behind True Freshman this year.... go figure

So you're saying that you have complete faith in the scouting services like Rivals and Scout? I bet you believe everything you read in The National Enquirer too. The fact is that about 65% of blue chippers become every down players, even the high school All Americans. Guys wash out at every program. Some aren't prepared for college. Some have gotten by on sheer athletic prowess, which you can't do at top flight programs.

Remember Brian Bosworth? He was an All-American in college and a total bust in the NFL. Ryan Leaf was a can't miss guy. Now Leaf is a position coach for an NAIA team. Even the NFL gets it wrong, and they have staffs of hundreds working 60 hours a week doing nothing but talent evaluation.

If you're talking about our young DB's, sure they don't just jump right in and pick it up. The systems they play in high school are addition and subtraction compared to CNS' calculus and trigonometry. Everyone would have a hard time grasping it, but that doesn't mean we should just play cover 2 every down, as you seem to be suggesting.

As for giving you the "heads up" that CNS is coaching them, I was just telling you what the HC said. You seem to have missed it.

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

WHEN DID I EVER USE THE TERM "STUPID"?... now you're just trying to put words in my mouth.... it's only a few players that i'm even referring to... just happens to be some of the highest rated prospects that have EVER signed at Bama, and yet have never played... and i even stated that from the info i've heard the players i'm talking about ARE hard workers and have great attitudes considering the situation... they just can't grasp the scheme well enough to earn Saban's trust and playing time

My point is that sometimes "not getting it" is due to effort. If everyone applies themselves equally, I believe the most talented player will play, but that isn't always the case. Give me a guy with a 4.5 40 yard dash time that puts in more film study and gets along with his teammates over a guy with a 4.3 40 yd dash that dogs it at practice. CNS has always said that the best players will play and he will recruit behind everybody.

Out of high school, Mark Ingram was a 3 star player that Michigan State was recruiting as a DB. Think anybody misjudged his skill set?

 

[BamasRollin]

So you're saying that you have complete faith in the scouting services like Rivals and Scout? I bet you believe everything you read in The National Enquirer too. The fact is that about 65% of blue chippers become every down players, even the high school All Americans. Guys wash out at every program. Some aren't prepared for college. Some have gotten by on sheer athletic prowess, which you can't do at top flight programs. Really? 65%... you pull that out of you arse or look it up somewhere? look when 5 star athletes come in and sit behind upperclassmen, supposedly struggle with the scheme, and then get replaced by True Freshman in their junior year, there is a disconnect somewhere, if you cant see that then we will have to just disagree on this particular issue

Remember Brian Bosworth? He was an All-American in college and a total bust in the NFL. Ryan Leaf was a can't miss guy. Now Leaf is a position coach for an NAIA team. Even the NFL gets it wrong, and they have staffs of hundreds working 60 hours a week doing nothing but talent evaluation. Just curious what anything you said here has to do with the current situation at Bama... unless you're saying that the players in question just "aren't good enough to cut it"

If you're talking about our young DB's, sure they don't just jump right in and pick it up. The systems they play in high school are addition and subtraction compared to CNS' calculus and trigonometry. Everyone would have a hard time grasping it, but that doesn't mean we should just play cover 2 every down, as you seem to be suggesting. actually talking more about the older DB's that sat and watched the younger players play because they still can't grasp the system well enough to earn playing time...

As for giving you the "heads up" that CNS is coaching them, I was just telling you what the HC said. You seem to have missed it.

no didn't miss what he said... just wonder how he can be on TV constantly correcting the same few players over and over and over and over and then the season rolls around and they're getting mop up duty when we have True Freshman starting.... and somehow you missed it

I just said it was a question worth asking, based on my personal observations, and obviously other fans as well seeing as how i didn't start this thread...

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

Just curious what anything you said here has to do with the current situation at Bama... unless you're saying that the players in question just "aren't good enough to cut it"

For a myriad of reason, that's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[BamasRollin]

My point is that sometimes "not getting it" is due to effort. If everyone applies themselves equally, I believe the most talented player will play, but that isn't always the case. Give me a guy with a 4.5 40 yard dash time that puts in more film study and gets along with his teammates over a guy with a 4.3 40 yd dash that dogs it at practice. CNS has always said that the best players will play and he will recruit behind everybody. and i've said a few times the players i'm referring to are not getting passed over due to lack of effort... it's due to Saban not trusting they know the system well enough...

it's amazing to me that not only you, but other posters also, would rather question a players integrity and effort rather than even broach the subject of CNS possibly simplifing the scheme

Out of high school, Mark Ingram was a 3 star player that Michigan State was recruiting as a DB. Think anybody misjudged his skill set?

aren't we talking about the defensive scheme? MI is great but... i must have missed where that has anything to do with what we've been talking about

 

[BamasRollin]

For a myriad of reason, that's exactly what I'm saying.

well then we'll have to agree to disagree... i believe the players are plenty talented and have had a hard time learning the system because of how complex it is... and you feel that if the player isn't playing then they just didn't try hard enough, right?

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

and i've said a few times the players i'm referring to are not getting passed over due to lack of effort... it's due to Saban not trusting they know the system well enough...

And I said from the outset I disagreed with your reasoning for "all of the 4 and 5 star guys" not playing.

it's amazing to me that not only you, but other posters also, would rather question a players integrity and effort rather than even broach the subject of CNS possibly simplifing the scheme

We've been a top 10 defense for the last 3 years. When it works, you win a NC. If you simplify the scheme, things don't just get easier for our defensive backs, they also get easier for the opposing offense. Marquis Johnson is great example of a player that struggled with the defensive schemes, but finally got it and helped us win a NC.

aren't we talking about the defensive scheme? MI is great but... i must have missed where that has anything to do with what we've been talking about

I was pointing out that sometimes the talent evaluators at the big sites don't know what the hell they're talking about. Do U C Y?

well then we'll have to agree to disagree... i believe the players are plenty talented and have had a hard time learning the system because of how complex it is... and you feel that if the player isn't playing then they just didn't try hard enough, right?

I agree to disagree.

 

[Ldlane]

I really think that it depends a lot more on the "Jimmy's and Joe's" than the complexity of the "X's and O's".

Let's allow Saban to explain his defensive philosophy in his own words. From one of his LSU defensive playbooks:

“[Our] philosophy on first and second down is to stop the run and play good zone pass defense. We will occasionally play man-to-man and blitz in this situation. On third down, we will primarily play man-to-man and mix-in some zone and blitzes. We will rush four or more players versus the pass about ninety-percent of the time.

“In all situations, we will defend the inside or middle of the field first – defend inside to outside. Against the run, we will not allow the ball to be run inside. We want to force the ball outside. Against the pass, we will not allow the ball to be thrown deep down the middle or inside. We want to force the ball to be thrown short and/or outside.

“… Finally, our job is to take the ball away from the opponents’ offense and score or set up good field position for our offense. We must knock the ball loose, force mistakes, and cause turnovers. Turnovers and making big plays win games. We will be alert and aggressive and take advantage of every opportunity to come up with the ball . . . . The trademark of our defense will be effort, toughness, and no mental mistakes regarding score or situation in any game.”

SmartFootball

 

[TideSatchel]

“[Our] philosophy on first and second down is to stop the run and play good zone pass defense. We will occasionally play man-to-man and blitz in this situation. On third down, we will primarily play man-to-man and mix-in some zone and blitzes. We will rush four or more players versus the pass about ninety-percent of the time.

“In all situations, we will defend the inside or middle of the field first – defend inside to outside. Against the run, we will not allow the ball to be run inside. We want to force the ball outside. Against the pass, we will not allow the ball to be thrown deep down the middle or inside. We want to force the ball to be thrown short and/or outside.

“… Finally, our job is to take the ball away from the opponents’ offense and score or set up good field position for our offense. We must knock the ball loose, force mistakes, and cause turnovers. Turnovers and making big plays win games. We will be alert and aggressive and take advantage of every opportunity to come up with the ball . . . . The trademark of our defense will be effort, toughness, and no mental mistakes regarding score or situation in any game.”

And that's exactly how we've played on D under Saban.

Great quote. He has such a focused directness with his words; he's quite articulate. Gets me pumped up just reading this one.

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

Really? 65%... you pull that out of you **** or look it up somewhere? look when 5 star athletes come in and sit behind upperclassmen, supposedly struggle with the scheme, and then get replaced by True Freshman in their junior year, there is a disconnect somewhere, if you cant see that then we will have to just disagree on this particular issue

I don't expect you to take my word for it:

High School Recruit Rating Analysis of 2007 NCAA Division I Football All-America Teams - OmniNerd

Over this sample size, the average DB recruit to become a CFB All-American was a 2.63 star recruit. 16 2* CBa out of high school became All-Americans. Javier Arenas was a 2 or 3 star prospect that Mike Shula recruited to return punts - oh btw, he became an All-American DB under CNS' tutelage.

Mike Strange: All-America lists filled with 3-stars » GoVolsXtra

When I surveyed the 2010 Associated Press first-team All-America offense and defense, I found that 17 of the 25 selections were three-star recruits.

That's 68 percent, or roughly two-thirds. And I'll wager that the message-board faithful at Fill-In-The-Blank State didn't get worked into a lather about any of them on signing day.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Are enough players struggling with the scheme to merit "simplifying" it? To me if the scheme was abnormally "too complex" then then CNS's defenses wouldn't consistently be ranked in the top five to ten defenses in the nation every year. Any defense or offense there will be players that simply do not get it and it maybe for different reasons. There are a lot of the players that get by with a lot of things in HS that they cannot in college. Like playing off of pure athletic talent without following any technical or fundamental aspect of the game.

I don't think his defensive scheme is "too complex". Is it "complex"? Yes. Gary Danielson says it a lot that Nick Saban runs as pure of an NFL defense as you'll see on the college level. But I don't think it's "too complex" to the point where it needs to be simplified nor do I think the handful from each class that do not "catch on" are worth simplifying for and running the risk of compromising the defenses effectiveness.

well then we'll have to agree to disagree... i believe the players are plenty talented and have had a hard time learning the system because of how complex it is... and you feel that if the player isn't playing then they just didn't try hard enough, right?

 

[bamadws56]

Are enough players struggling with the scheme to merit "simplifying" it? To me if the scheme was abnormally "too complex" then then CNS's defenses wouldn't consistently be ranked in the top five to ten defenses in the nation every year. Any defense or offense there will be players that simply do not get it and it maybe for different reasons. There are a lot of the players that get by with a lot of things in HS that they cannot in college. Like playing off of pure athletic talent without following any technical or fundamental aspect of the game.

I don't think his defensive scheme is "too complex". Is it "complex"? Yes. Gary Danielson says it a lot that Nick Saban runs as pure of an NFL defense as you'll see on the college level. But I don't think it's "too complex" to the point where it needs to be simplified nor do I think the handful from each class that do not "catch on" are worth simplifying for and running the risk of compromising the defenses effectiveness.

I like the complexity myself, look at what it did to Ryan Mallet the first year he faced it. Heck, look at what it did to all the quarterbacks we faced that year. When everyone "gets it" it is unstoppable. This year is probably an abberation, with so many new starters being thrown into the fire. Most years from here on out, we will not struggle with a brand new secondary and front 7 that is having trouble pressuring the quarterback. I wonder though, if you showed Coach Saban the results of the year if he would have done something different during the pre-season. Someone on here who knows, how often do we play man coverage vs. the combo coverages that this defense is known for?

 

[BamasRollin]

Are enough players struggling with the scheme to merit "simplifying" it? To me if the scheme was abnormally "too complex" then then CNS's defenses wouldn't consistently be ranked in the top five to ten defenses in the nation every year. Any defense or offense there will be players that simply do not get it and it maybe for different reasons. There are a lot of the players that get by with a lot of things in HS that they cannot in college. Like playing off of pure athletic talent without following any technical or fundamental aspect of the game.

I don't think his defensive scheme is "too complex". Is it "complex"? Yes. Gary Danielson says it a lot that Nick Saban runs as pure of an NFL defense as you'll see on the college level. But I don't think it's "too complex" to the point where it needs to be simplified nor do I think the handful from each class that do not "catch on" are worth simplifying for and running the risk of compromising the defenses effectiveness.

all i was ever saying was it was a good question, one i've thought of myself because of certain players never seeing the field, and obviously i'm not the only one who thinks about it since i'm not the one who started this thread and not the poster on the other board that the OP is referring to...

Are enough players struggling with the scheme to merit "simplifying" it? this is also a good question

i said in my original response that the OP posted a good question and probably has more than one good answer...

i can only think of a few examples of players that i thought could have/should have made an impact by now that are losing playing time to younger players, and it because they apparently dont have a good enough grasp on the scheme to earn playing time... based soley on that question, do those few players merit a change? i would say no, based on the fact we have succeeded without them

i'll ask another question... just because a defense is "simplified" a little, does that automatically equate to losing the effectiveness?

 

[buzzincuzzin]

His complete design was developed for pros with forty-hour work weeks and 5-6 year tenures. Has he down-scaled it down for collage ball ? You bet. But he can only go so far.

 

[Tidewith13]

I saw another poster ask this in another thread and it got me to wondering. People always talk about how complex Coach Saban's defense is, especially for the secondary. Looking at what happened this season, with most of our touchdowns coming off of busted coverages, is the system so complex as to be a liability?

We had a difficult situation this year with replacing 9 starters. Should Coach dumb it down some in years like this and slowly bring the defense along? Does his system even allow for it (i.e. can you run a 3/4 over under that lacks complexity and still be effective)?

Disclaimer:This is not a "I am questioning if Coach Saban knows what he is doing" post. I would just like some frank and open discussion about what posters think.

Being a coach, as the complexity of the defensive scheme increases the more the players have to know and remember. Thus communicating the different alignments and coverages from play to play can cause some confusion at times. That is why we saw some of the blown coverages from time to time. But if you can run a complex scheme with freshmen, true freshmen at that, the more you can do on defense to give the opposition more looks that they know what to do with. Has its advantages and disadvantages.