LGBTQ Issues: Will We Choose Love and Acceptance or Hate and Oppression? (Part 2)

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AWRTR

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Serious question because I stopped giving the Bible much thought when I left the church but does it ever say in the Bible that the Bible itself is infallible? Because wasn't it formed by a council at some point.

And why would anyone assume a book written by humans would be infallible?

Aren't there also differences within the gospels themselves?
It says that all scripture wins “God breathed” and god for teaching and correction.

Each person can believe and interpret however they want but we should all expect pushback when we put our ideas out there.
That’s not really aimed at you. You just asked a very reasonable question.
 
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AWRTR

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Good joke. I laughed.

Good thing there has never been disagreement over what the Bible says or there's no telling how many denominations there would be.
You are correct. All of us should expect pushback when we speak on these subjects. I’m good with others putting out what they think. I may disagree, but I also think Gid gave us all free will to make choices and in the end He will sort it all out.
 

AWRTR

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I alone know God's will and will impose it on you.
This may be where I’m a little different in my thought process than some people you have run across. I put a lot of stock in man’s free will because God gave it to us. It is one of the ways we are made in His image. I actually get the argument for gay marriage and don’t think the government should legislate morality for adults in most cases as long as another party isnt harmed. Kids are another story since they can’t give informed consent as an adult can and we know their brains aren’t developed. That’s why we don’t let them get credit cards, sign a contract or go into the army. They simply don’t have the brain development to make those decisions. What two grown people do is their business. God gave them the free will to make their choices and if someone chooses to be an atheist that’s their choice. If someone wants to marry someone of the same gender then that’s their choice.

When we choose to not choose God we will deal with those choices. Once again God will sort it out. Where the issue comes in for me is when I feel that what the Bible says is being misrepresented to make something ok that isn’t. God set a standard. I can choose not pursue it, but for people claiming to be Christians to ignore the standard He laid out or to change it to fit their world view isn’t acceptable to me.We are all welcome to our views, but should expect to be called out when we make truth claims. I expect to be and I’m good with that. Both you and 92 have made truth claims in this specific area and brought the Bible into it. That will often lead to pushback, and that’s a good. It sharpens us to be questioned.

I’m actually for adults being able to live however they want, but I can also express what I think about their public choices just like they can mine. That’s what a liberal democracy should be. I can tell you that you are wrong, but I shouldn’t be able to force you to change as long as no one is being harmed and you shouldn’t be able to silence me. There is an effort silence dissent in this area. I know some people are crass and say things I wouldnt, but that should be allowed.
 

NationalTitles18

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This may be where I’m a little different in my thought process than some people you have run across. I put a lot of stock in man’s free will because God gave it to us. It is one of the ways we are made in His image. I actually get the argument for gay marriage and don’t think the government should legislate morality for adults in most cases as long as another party isnt harmed. Kids are another story since they can’t give informed consent as an adult can and we know their brains aren’t developed. That’s why we don’t let them get credit cards, sign a contract or go into the army. They simply don’t have the brain development to make those decisions. What two grown people do is their business. God gave them the free will to make their choices and if someone chooses to be an atheist that’s their choice. If someone wants to marry someone of the same gender then that’s their choice.

When we choose to not choose God we will deal with those choices. Once again God will sort it out. Where the issue comes in for me is when I feel that what the Bible says is being misrepresented to make something ok that isn’t. God set a standard. I can choose not pursue it, but for people claiming to be Christians to ignore the standard He laid out or to change it to fit their world view isn’t acceptable to me.We are all welcome to our views, but should expect to be called out when we make truth claims. I expect to be and I’m good with that. Both you and 92 have made truth claims in this specific area and brought the Bible into it. That will often lead to pushback, and that’s a good. It sharpens us to be questioned.

I’m actually for adults being able to live however they want, but I can also express what I think about their public choices just like they can mine. That’s what a liberal democracy should be. I can tell you that you are wrong, but I shouldn’t be able to force you to change as long as no one is being harmed and you shouldn’t be able to silence me. There is an effort silence dissent in this area. I know some people are crass and say things I wouldnt, but that should be allowed.
You've been so oppressed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is.
 
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Huckleberry

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Many LGBT Republicans are outraged and are claiming they were “misled” after Ron DeSantis posted a homophobic and transphobic ad. “It’s like he’s going mask off,” one gay Republican said.

 

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Many LGBT Republicans are outraged and are claiming they were “misled” after Ron DeSantis posted a homophobic and transphobic ad. “It’s like he’s going mask off,” one gay Republican said.

LGBTQ conservatives, reacting to the video, said DeSantis had shown his true colors as an “anti-LGBT champion,” undermining his arguments that his support for the policies were about protecting children and parents’ rights.

“It’s like he’s going mask off,” said Brad Polumbo, a Michigan-based libertarian journalist. “The cat’s out of the bag.”

Polumbo said he’d have considered voting for DeSantis at one time.
Has this guy been asleep the past few years?

It was never ever anything related to protecting children or parents' rights.

It was always bigotry and infringement on the rights of LGBTQ people and anyone who dared to support them.
 
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92tide

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Many LGBT Republicans are outraged and are claiming they were “misled” after Ron DeSantis posted a homophobic and transphobic ad. “It’s like he’s going mask off,” one gay Republican said.

1688480080915.png
 

AWRTR

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[/QUOTE]
Being gay is not a sin.
Neither is being lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.
The Bible never claims that it is.
It really doesn't.
Christians should stop saying it because it's reckless and irresponsible—and it's killing people.


Link to column
I said I would share my opinion on this article and here it is. Took me a while to get to it. My daughter has been having some medical issues and they have found a brain bleed. She has a very rare genetic disorder that makes her more susceptible to these types of things and it isn't her first. As you can imagine that has taken up the vast majority of my attention.

I am approaching this as an argument from authority. If you are atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Muslim, or embrace some other worldview this post won't do much for you. I'm approaching it in this way because the author of the article I am reacting to approached the Bible as an authority so I am doing the same.

If you don't agree me that's cool. I won't do every sentence because that would be crazy, but will try to stick to main points and themes. I know this will be long and many won't read, but it has caused me to consider why I believe what I do and defend it, which is always a good exercise if for no one but me. I'm trying to make a post longer than Tidewater, but it won't be nearly as good as something he could write.

I'll put quotes from the article in bold to make it easy to follow.

First, the author starts off by diving into Genesis and the creation story.

Which ones were created in God’s image, the males or the females? If our answer is both (which it must be), then God is decidedly non-binary, God transcends a single gender identity—God is by nature trans-gender. We cannot have God be a He and also make women in His image—and we can’t have a God capable of creating men and women, unless God is equally made of both. These Christians wouldn’t dream of excoriating God for the fluidity, would they?

I do agree that God the Father as described can't necessarily be nailed down to a gender. He is universally referred to as a He in Scripture because He is a personal being. He isn't an it. This doesn't mean God is transgender or nonbinary as we would think of it. I think the author should have used the term 2 spirit as I understand the term to make his point, so he starts off not even understanding the language he is using properly.

We are not made in the image of God in a literal physical sense as the author seems to imply. In John 4:24 it says that God is spirit. The author has totally misunderstood or misrepresented the concept of humanity being created in God's image. He is trying to boil it down to physical form and matter. What God is speaking about here is the immaterial part of humanity, his soul and spirit or his mind, will, and emotions as we might think about it in modern secular language. We are given agency by God to choose. We can have rational thoughts and carry out our will to at least some extent. We have free will to choose and create as God did. We can't create on his level, but we write literature, create art, create new life, and build and construct societies.

We are made for community. This also reflects God. When we think about the triune God, He fellowships among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I know that's a whole other ball of wax when it comes to the trinity, but that's not the focus of the article so I won't attempt to go deep into the concept, and honestly, it makes my head hurt sometimes. Man's first relationship was with God. The author boiling down all of man's creation in the image of God to gender is incredibly simple, misleading, and so surface level I have to wonder if he did it on purpose to make his point and ignored the rest so he wouldn't have to be intellectually honest.

They like to say that the Bible declares that marriage is strictly between one man and one woman, while the Old Testament, as early as Genesis’ fourth chapter is teeming with bigamy, polygamy, and extra-marital sex practiced by the lauded pillars and Patriarchs of the faith (Abraham, Gideon, Solomon, David)—not as cautionary tale, and not with rebuke, but simply as the story of God’s people. There are no definitive statements on marriage spanning the breadth of Scripture.

We do like to say that because that's what we see in the creation story. "This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one." Genesis 2:24. The language is pretty plain, "two are united into one". He's ignoring this passage and going to the patriarchs to try to make another point that fails on many levels.

He is correct that the patriarchs made a huge mess very quickly. What's interesting about the Bible is that it gives a very honest view of the people's lives described in it. It is a unique thing. Abraham lies, sleeps with his wife's servant at his wife's urging, and then banishes the boy and his mother when they get into a conflict with his wife, Sarah, and their son Isaac. Abraham looks bad in the whole thing. The author is wrong that it's not a cautionary tale. It is exactly that. Every time we see polygamy, adultery, and other sexual sin in the Bible it never ends well. Abraham's family is a wreck. Jacob's family is a wreck. His children's families are wrecks. Go to Genesis 38 and read about Judah. The guy was a hot mess.

Using Solomon and David as examples is absolutely dishonest or he showing his ignorance of Scripture. Maybe he was too lazy to Google search the topic. Deut. 17:17, says, "He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold." This verse is giving a direct command to the future kings of Israel. David and Solomon were in direct sin and disobedience. These two men had terrible family lives and Solomon was pulled away from the Lord in his later years due to the many wives he married that weren't Jews. David had one of his sons rape his half-sister. This led to murder and another son eventually attempting to overthrow his father. Go read the story of Absalom in 2nd Samuel. David's family was a total disaster.

There are statements about marriage in both the Old and New Testaments as stated above, but the author chose to ignore them because they didn't fit his narrative. Jesus let the Israelites have it over how they were handling divorce in Matthew 5. Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter all spoke of marriage as between husband and wife. There is no hint of polygamy in the New Testament, and adultery is absolutely forbidden. Paul speaks of a husband loving his wife as Christ loves the church in Eph. 5. He speaks of men as being the husband of one wife. The author's argument falls apart here because he neglects to deal with the actual text.

To be continued.
 
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AWRTR

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They’ll throw around the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, as supposed proof of God’s wrath against the gay community—when in fact, the book of Ezekiel 16:49 declares the former was destroyed because of its greed and disregard for the poor—but you don’t see many of these Christians preaching that sermon, especially not GOP Christians.

He makes a valid point here. Throw out Sodom and Gomorrah as an argument totally and it doesn't change what all the other passages say.

They’ll try to say that Jesus opposes the LGBTQ community, when he never once corrects, cautions, or condemns anyone based on their gender identity or sexual orientation. In this case, we’re supposed to believe the unspoken damnation is implied, when in reality these people are making Jesus say things he never said—simply because they want him to say it.

The author is making an argument from silence here. Jesus also never says to not beat your wife. Does that mean it's ok to beat your wife? Of course not! I just quoted Paul earlier saying to love your wife as Christ loved the church, and Christ died for the church. The fact that other parts of the Bible both Old and New Testament speak to the issue of homosexuality is enough. Jesus said in John 10:35, "And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered." The New Testament had not been written yet so we know He was referring to the Old Testament. He quoted from the Old Testament constantly. He said He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. This argument from silence is bad when it clearly has so many holes in it due to the rest of Scripture and Jesus's statements about the standing and authority of the Old Testament make the author's argument look like swiss cheese.

They’ll quote Paul in Romans Chapter 1, describing people consciously “trading their natural attractions” for same-sex desire and corresponding physical acts), failing to connect the dots, that for most members of the LGBTQ, there is no such exchanging taking place. They aren’t feeling one thing, and choosing an alternative simply to choose. They aren’t acting in opposition to any primary inclination. Their same-sex orientation is their natural. (If pressed, these Christians need to admit that this passage refers to a specific sex act tied to pagan worship practices, and cannot be superimposed over identity and orientation—and it’s certainly not appropriate to use it to categorize committed, loving relationships by people along the full LGBTQ continuum.) When trying to use Paul’s references in this way, they’re trying to separate LGBTQ people from the capacity to love and be in mutually beneficial relationships—and that’s simply wrong.

Here is Romans 1:26-27 in the New Living Translation which is the second most widely used translation at the moment behind the NIV. "That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved."

Look at the language for women in verse 26, "turned against the natural way to have sex". This translation certainly doesn't fit his point. Verse 27 is similar, "the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other."

When you go to the Greek it doesn't make sense either. The idea is that the women exchanged their natural function they would have with a man sexually for the "unnatural". That Greek word translated natural is phusis. It is defined in this way: 1. the nature of things, the force, laws, 2. order of nature as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse. When you look at the Greek here there is really no way around how Paul viewed this subject. He sees it as sin. The same Greek word is used of men only in the masculine form. The idea in the Greek is that these people abandoned their natural physical function as created by God for something else.

The word seems to be dealing with the biology of the creature or person more than anything else. It isn't natural for a wolf to eat leaves off a tree, and it isn't natural for a cow to stalk and kill prey. They aren't designed for that, and God designed the physical biology of men and women to interact in a specific way. The author of the article is trying to put 21st-century gender ideology into the mind of a first-century reader and author. That isn't how a Jew like Paul or the Jews, in general, would have understood gender in any fashion. If that is what God meant wouldn't he have used Paul to explain the concept as the author of the letter?

To be continued.
 
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AWRTR

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At the end of the day, the Bible is not clear on these matters. It is cloudy and even contradictory at times. There is no consistent sexual ethic in the Scriptures, no one image of marriage—and no specific condemnation from Jesus or Paul of those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender simply because of their identity and orientation. If we can admit, that LGBTQ people have the same capacity for love, commitment, and monogamy in a mutually beneficial relationship that cisgender-heteronormative Christians do—the text becomes impossible to weaponize as it has been.

The author stating the Bible isn't clear on these matters while he just wrote an article basically stating the Bible is clear on these matters and trying, in vain in my opinion, to make his point is quite a contradiction. He states very clearly what he believes and what the Bible supports. There is one image of marriage, but the Bible is truthful in showing how humans ignored that to their own detriment, as stated in detail above.

1st Corinthians 6:9-11 says, "9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Some argue that the word Paul uses here, translated as homosexuality, arsenokoitai, isn't speaking of homosexuality as we think of it today. Paul seems to have invented the word. It’s a compound word: “arsen” means man and “koite” or “koitas” or “koitai”—depending on a verb or a noun—means bed. It’s men who bed with other men. Where did he come up with this? Paul went to the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, specifically in chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus. These two words are found together in these two chapters. The Septuagint was in wide use at the time of Paul's writing and he seems to quote from it in other places in his letters. It makes sense to do so in light of Greek being widely used in the areas he was in.

Paul is quite deliberately pulling from the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus, to make a word to describe the action he was speaking about. So he has in his mind the Old Testament. Leviticus has a lot of strange things in it but that doesn't mean we shouldn’t pay attention to it. Because Paul is explicitly drawing from this book as he writes the New Testament to coin this word which, given the context in Leviticus and how it’s used elsewhere after the New Testament, means men having sex with other men. There is no other interpretation that makes the best sense of the evidence both in the early Christian literature and especially in the Old Testament.

If we have the idea of arsenokoitai correct and look at verse 11 of 1st Corinthians 6 it leads us to an interesting conclusion. Here the verse is again, " Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Some of you were once like that. Paul is giving the idea a transformation from one way of living to another. He fleshes this out more fully in Romans 12 starting in verse 1, "And so, dear brothers and sisters,[a] I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. 2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect." Is Paul saying God transforms? It appears that is exactly what he is doing.

We are made holy and right with God the Father by our salvation through the blood of and faith in Jesus as referenced in 1st Corinthians 6:11. He says, "some you were once like this." In other words, God changed you. If arsenokoitai is correctly understood as previously stated then it doesn't leave room to say the Bible doesn't speak clearly on marriage and sexual ethics in this area.

Take all this for what you will. Agree or disagree doesn't matter to me, but the author was very lacking in his research and Biblical understanding of common concepts, such as the making of man in God's image or he just wanted to write what he wanted to write. I think his biggest issue is that he was trying to fit a 21st-century progressive worldview into the Bible and it's really just not there. That's his deal and he can think what he wants and interpret how he wants and so can I.
 

92tide

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My daughter has been having some medical issues and they have found a brain bleed. She has a very rare genetic disorder that makes her more susceptible to these types of things and it isn't her first. As you can imagine that has taken up the vast majority of my attention.
sorry to hear about your daughter. i hope she is ok
 

Jon

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sorry to hear about your daughter. i hope she is ok
thanks for pulling that out of the wall of bible text, I wasn't about to read all that


Thanks we are talking with a neurosurgeon this week. Trying to determine cause and any further steps.
wishing the best for your little girl and your family. Hope you have access to great doctors
 
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AWRTR

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thanks for pulling that out of the wall of bible text, I wasn't about to read all that




wishing the best for your little girl and your family. Hope you have access to great doctors
We do. We are working with the university of Miami. They have been taking care of her since she was an infant. Her neurologist referred us to this neurosurgeon in the UM health system. She has a whole team of doctors and a dietician. She has done better than anyone ever thought she would. She went to school this year, she was homeschooled previously and did very well. Her disorder affects her physically and not cognitively. She made honor roll her last nine weeks. We view this as another bump in a long road. She has GA-1.
 

NationalTitles18

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We do. We are working with the university of Miami. They have been taking care of her since she was an infant. Her neurologist referred us to this neurosurgeon in the UM health system. She has a whole team of doctors and a dietician. She has done better than anyone ever thought she would. She went to school this year, she was homeschooled previously and did very well. Her disorder affects her physically and not cognitively. She made honor roll her last nine weeks. We view this as another bump in a long road. She has GA-1.
Best of luck to your daughter and strength to you and your family.

The thread boils down to loving your neighbor as yourself and equal protection under the law for everyone whether we like/dislike/agree/disagree (with) them or what they do/believe.

I find those things important in a secular society and in personal dealings. (and lord knows I'm not perfect)

Whether anyone else holds those principles dear is up to them.
 

Go Bama

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I said I would share my opinion on this article and here it is. Took me a while to get to it. My daughter has been having some medical issues and they have found a brain bleed. She has a very rare genetic disorder that makes her more susceptible to these types of things and it isn't her first. As you can imagine that has taken up the vast majority of my attention.
I am so sorry to hear this, and can certainly relate. I wish only the best for your daughter, you, and your family. Modern medicine can do some marvelous things. I will keep your daughter and family in my prayers. Having a seriously sick child certainly puts things in perspective.

After reading your first paragraph, I'll have to come back to the rest later. Godspeed.
 
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