The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse 2?

[CrimsonJazz]

However, I did see a poll a few weeks ago that Generation Z and whatever generations are behind the Millennials are more religious and attending church at a higher rate than the Millennials.

And if you were Catholic, you'd be seeing something equally amazing among these youngsters: they have a very strong desire to go back to a pre-Vatican II church and it is showing up everywhere. The women are back to wearing the head-coverings and the Latin Mass has never been this popular. I see this as a truly positive sign after the Boomers did everything they could to ruin everything that made the Catholic Church distinct and unique. Also, an overwhelming majority of seminarians now identify as conservative.

 

[Huckleberry]

And if you were Catholic, you'd be seeing something equally amazing among these youngsters: they have a very strong desire to go back to a pre-Vatican II church and it is showing up everywhere. The women are back to wearing the head-coverings and the Latin Mass has never been this popular. I see this as a truly positive sign after the Boomers did everything they could to ruin everything that made the Catholic Church distinct and unique. Also, an overwhelming majority of seminarians now identify as conservative.

This probably needs to go to a different thread, but are you advocating for a return to pre-Vatican II norms?

 

[CrimsonJazz]

This probably needs to go to a different thread, but are you advocating for a return to pre-Vatican II norms?

Altogether? No. That council covered a lot of ground, so one would have to break it down to specifics to have that conversation.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

This probably needs to go to a different thread, but are you advocating for a return to pre-Vatican II norms?

My household is Protestant, but if "pre-Vatican" means having my supper cooked and waiting on me when I get home from work, SIGN ME UP!!!

 

[CrimsonJazz]

My household is Protestant, but if "pre-Vatican" means having my supper cooked and waiting on me when I get home from work, SIGN ME UP!!!

Okay, but have fun with those 14 kids!

 

[TIDE-HSV]

And if you were Catholic, you'd be seeing something equally amazing among these youngsters: they have a very strong desire to go back to a pre-Vatican II church and it is showing up everywhere. The women are back to wearing the head-coverings and the Latin Mass has never been this popular. I see this as a truly positive sign after the Boomers did everything they could to ruin everything that made the Catholic Church distinct and unique. Also, an overwhelming majority of seminarians now identify as conservative.

Then, they'd better hit the books, hard. The present pope only reads it. The cardinal who introduced the pope made a egregious grammatical boner. A Latin mass is laughable, TBH. I know it from one end to the other (plus 3 years of HS Latin), so if the Catholic church reverts to a form that 99% of the congregants don't understand, and I decide to convert from UMC, then I'll at least have the leg up that I know what's going on...

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Then, they'd better hit the books, hard. The present pope only reads it. The cardinal who introduced the pope made a egregious grammatical boner. A Latin mass is laughable, TBH. I know it from one end to the other (plus 3 years of HS Latin), so if the Catholic church reverts to a form that 99% of the congregants don't understand, and I decide to convert from UMC, then I'll at least have the leg up that I know what's going on...

That's the thing: they have and they do. That's one of the things that has made this as impressive as it is. I'm still a new (ish) Christian myself, so I'd be utterly lost in a TLM at first. Nevertheless, the order of the mass isn't hard to keep up with and it wouldn't take a significant amount of brain power to learn at least that.

Having said all this, there is a zero-percent chance that the church would completely revert back to the TLM. For better or worse, the Novus Ordo is here to stay. Its chief architect, Annibale Bugnini, L'Osservatore Romano, had this to say about it:

"We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be a shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants."

I think this is where much of the hostility came from back in 1965. Ecumenicism is a good thing, but some felt like the church had capitulated entirely too much. I haven't formed an opinion on this point of view as yet and to be honest, I feel like it has kind of failed regardless. I didn't expect to receive so much criticism when I joined the church, but most viewpoints seemed to be in the vein of, "You joined what?! Don't you know they are all going to hell for [insert accusation here]?!" I can't say I wasn't warned this would happen, but jeez.

 

[Huckleberry]

@CrimsonJazz (Continuing the conversation from the Education thread): I’m not religious, so I’m not trying to debate doctrine or tell anyone what their church should be. I’m just curious where you think these younger traditional Catholics are actually headed.

Do you think this is mostly about wanting Mass to feel more traditional, solemn, beautiful, and distinctly Catholic? Or do you think it also points toward a broader return to older pre-Vatican II norms around authority, lay participation, relations with non-Catholics, women’s roles, and engagement with the modern world?

I’m honestly not trying to start an argument. I’m just trying to understand what you see happening.

 

[crimsonaudio]

And if you were Catholic, you'd be seeing something equally amazing among these youngsters: they have a very strong desire to go back to a pre-Vatican II church and it is showing up everywhere. The women are back to wearing the head-coverings and the Latin Mass has never been this popular. I see this as a truly positive sign after the Boomers did everything they could to ruin everything that made the Catholic Church distinct and unique. Also, an overwhelming majority of seminarians now identify as conservative.

As one of my children told me - when you aren't forced into something it's a lot easier to embrace it. My kids (genZ) see this all over the place among their peers - their generation generally wasn't forced into church as previous generations were, so there's little need to 'rebel'.

 

[crimsonaudio]

@CrimsonJazz (Continuing the conversation from the Education thread):

FWIW, I moved the last page of the education thread here as it was all about religion, not education. It doesn't appear that it will cause any incongruity, but if so, apologies in advance.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

@CrimsonJazz (Continuing the conversation from the Education thread): I’m not religious, so I’m not trying to debate doctrine or tell anyone what their church should be. I’m just curious where you think these younger traditional Catholics are actually headed.

Do you think this is mostly about wanting Mass to feel more traditional, solemn, beautiful, and distinctly Catholic? Or do you think it also points toward a broader return to older pre-Vatican II norms around authority, lay participation, relations with non-Catholics, women’s roles, and engagement with the modern world?

I’m honestly not trying to start an argument. I’m just trying to understand what you see happening.

You actually nailed it pretty well. People are starving for something more spiritual and meaningful than what they are currently getting and the TLM does provide that for many. I suspect that few would have any issue with Vatican II had they just left the mass alone. (Or, if they had to reform it, to keep it as closely as possible within the perimeters of Sacrosanctum Concilium, but that's just an educated guess on my part.)

It's also important to note that much of the negative views of these young traditionalists are coming not from inside the church but from the secular world. As many of these families have gone back to more traditional gender roles within the family, this is anathema to the modern feminist. The thing to remember is that these young women are making this choice for themselves. They are rejecting (for now) the idea that life is more rewarding when having a career than with raising a family. I'm old enough to remember when feminism was about the right to make choices, not having one dictated to you by the modernist wave of feminism.

As far as I can tell, these young people aren't attempting to reconstruct the church to the pre-Vatican II norms. The women are as active in the church as they have always been and frankly it's impossible to go back to a time before laity participation became the rule. There just aren't enough priests and deacons to go around as it is; not allowing things like Eucharistic ministers would be disastrous. Clearly some things simply cannot be undone, if for no other reason than simple logistics.

Vatican II's attempts at ecumenicism was a mixed bag. Some feel like it opened the door to reconciliation with the Orthodox Church whereas others feel like it did nothing whatsoever. Many Orthodox observers were skeptical from the beginning and frankly, I can't blame them. Still, the church's intentions were good, even if the execution was ham-fisted as some would suggest. People are still going to be arguing about Vatican II a hundred years from now.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

As one of my children told me - when you aren't forced into something it's a lot easier to embrace it. My kids (genZ) see this all over the place among their peers - their generation generally wasn't forced into church as previous generations were, so there's little need to 'rebel'.

Well, that and the fact that being "right-wing" (whatever that means nowadays) is now the counter-culture. Kids are as rebellious as they have always been and to prove it, here is a quote from Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols:

"I never thought I'd live to see the day when the right wing would become the cool ones giving the middle finger to the establishment, and the left wing becoming the sniveling self-righteous ****** ones going around shaming everyone."

I was utterly floored the first time I heard this, but it's absolutely true.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

LOL! I have my own opinion about anyone who would consign anyone to hell for their beliefs, but they're best kept to myself. I'm a singer and I've sung the mass many times. As I mentioned, I know what I'm singing, when many singers are simply singing unknown words phonetically. I literally lost track a long time ago of the number of times I have sung Gounod's Sanctus from his St. Cecilia's mass as a solo - in protestant churches. I sometimes have to control emotion singing the Requiem, particularly Rutter's. However, that doesn't mean that I endorse nor support some of the theology behind it, principally transubstantiation. I can see the Latin mass preserved for high occasions, particularly when in a musical setting. There's really nothing in singing it, per se, that I find offensive, as a protestant. So there's no tension there for me. As the basis for weekly worship in a meaningful manner, Luther was right...

Ah, John Rutter's Requiem.....sends a chill up my spine and down my arms every time I hear it. You are indeed a man of many talents.

And yep, transubstantiation was a toughie for me.....as it usually is for most converts. TBH, a lot of cradle Catholics are skeptical of it, too. They would never admit this to an outsider, but I've heard it with my own two ears. But in my view, this is one way faith has to come in and establish itself.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Ah, John Rutter's Requiem.....sends a chill up my spine and down my arms every time I hear it. You are indeed a man of many talents.

And yep, transubstantiation was a toughie for me.....as it usually is for most converts. TBH, a lot of cradle Catholics are skeptical of it, too. They would never admit this to an outsider, but I've heard it with my own two ears. But in my view, this is one way faith has to come in and establish itself.

You said it. I didn't. I started to. I believe you can be part of organized religion without accepting every jot and tittle of official dogma. I'm lucky in that I belong to, probably, the broadest tent in mainstream Protestantism - the UMC (or the part that's left). The little tent folk left. Only time will tell if Christianity is in its end days or on the brink of a revival. It's been in worse shape. Those who don't know it don't know their church history...

 

[CrimsonJazz]

You said it. I didn't. I started to. I believe you can be part of organized religion without accepting every jot and tittle of official dogma. I'm lucky in that I belong to, probably, the broadest tent in mainstream Protestantism - the UMC (or the part that's left). The little tent folk left. Only time will tell if Christianity is in its end days or on the brink of a revival. It's been in worse shape. Those who don't know it don't know their church history...

This is absolutely true. My son became a Methodist when his long-time girlfriend did the same. That was several years ago and I do recall the big split that happened shortly thereafter. It's a shame, but his church is a shadow of its former self. Evan has started asking me questions about sola scriptura and apostolic succession and this leads me to believe he's pretty much over it and ready to move on.

The church has lived through various ebbs and flows and has survived much worse than dwindling numbers. I generally avoid end-times discussion, but unless we are darkening the doors to such a thing, I have to assume that we are probably about to hit another revival. I'd love to see it here, but I'd love to see it even more in Europe. Young people over there are bucking religious trends as well. IMO, Europe could use its own "Great Awakening" experience.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I can't speak for the Catholic church, but the increase in church attendance for the Protestant churches has been attributed to the alternatives society turned to when there started to be a downturn in church attendance, didn't produce the results anticipated.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

You said it. I didn't. I started to. I believe you can be part of organized religion without accepting every jot and tittle of official dogma. I'm lucky in that I belong to, probably, the broadest tent in mainstream Protestantism - the UMC (or the part that's left). The little tent folk left. Only time will tell if Christianity is in its end days or on the brink of a revival. It's been in worse shape. Those who don't know it don't know their church history...

I'm very skeptical of anyone who says they believe "everything" their church teaches and "believes". It's like the married couple of 50+ years bragging to the pastor that they'd "never had one fight" in all their years of marriage. The pastor told them, "Then one of y'all ain't necessary".

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Tonight, I watched a video on food and the table in Biblical times. I was humbled, not that I'm not by everything new I learn. I was genuinely shaken by the lack of understanding and downright misunderstandings I had, including some important sayings of Jesus. I have a lot of study to do...

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Tonight, I watched a video on food and the table in Biblical times. I was humbled, not that I'm not by everything new I learn. I was genuinely shaken by the lack of understanding and downright misunderstandings I had, including some important sayings of Jesus. I have a lot of study to do...

I’ve already accepted the fact that I will never stop learning. I just hope I live long enough to actually read all the books on theology I’ve purchased.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the recent viral video of the pastor of a church in Florida beating the stuffings out of the 20 year old man? I'm surprised I haven't seen someone post about it.